Ball Bearing Pivots

[brandoak]

Plenty of makers put steel racers in their bearing pivot knives. Just wait. One day some maker like KAI or Spyderco will start doing it and then everyone will come out of the woodwork saying how much better it is and how crazy it was to go without them, like steel lockbar inserts. For some reason knives were pretty ok without them, until they weren't.

I agree 100% here. Just like ZT upgraded? / changed the lock bar and added a steel insert on some/most of there knives. But why did they do this? Was it just what the consumer wanted or was there truly an abundance of people who had problems with the lock bar w/out a steel insert?


I also agree that when a company considers an upgrade like this they weigh in the production costs, the increased cost to the consumer and potential warranty issues with and without the upgrade. A hardened steel bearing race (I would suppose) would be of vastly higher cost to produce than what the lock-bar insert did?
While justifying warranty claims do to bearing wear vs the production costs of fixing it, I think the clear winning strategy for them was to appease the few(prolonged carriers and hard users) that have issues or even the fewer who actually are projected to go through the channels of a warranty claim in the first place. ...for now..
My guess is, about this time next year you will see them producing bearing knives with hardened steel inserts..... to um...”keep up with the Jones's” so to speak.

 

[PURPLEDC]

I just want to know why every thread has to get derailed by constantly bringing in company names and inflamatory comments that people know ar going to cause an argument. If people want to have a bash fest on a company they should make a new thread about it and in the appropriate areas, instead of always having to ruin a pefectly good civil conversation with the unrelated negativity. Im sorry i just want to know how many years its going to continue before its finally agreed that we all know where everyone stands on certain subjects. There comes a time to get over it or at the very least respect the fact that everyone else for sure has. I know we get new members, but everyones epic greatness is a matter of public record now at levels beyond stupid and easily searchable.

 

[JR88FAN]

Plenty of makers put steel racers in their bearing pivot knives. Just wait. One day some maker like KAI or Spyderco will start doing it and then everyone will come out of the woodwork saying how much better it is and how crazy it was to go without them, like steel lockbar inserts. For some reason knives were pretty ok without them, until they weren't.

I am going to guess that a lot of this is driven by the fear and anxiety that seems to come out of discussions like this.

If you make a knife with bearings, many people (potential customers to companies and makers) have a perception that it will catastrophically fail.
Insert a steel racer and the anxiety level goes down...

Lock bar inserts. Yes, a Ti lockface will eventually wear out against a the hardened steel tang, but it takes a hell of a long time.
I am going to say without any hesitation that excessive wear and early failure are caused by poor geometry, and nothing else.
Get the geometry right, and that lock up will last longer then we need to worry about.

But, it's easier to have a steel lock bar and calm the anxiety. + you don't have to get that geometry so correct....

It's easier to innovate the fear and anxiety out then to try to talk it out.....

 

[bodog]

I am going to guess that a lot of this is driven by the fear and anxiety that seems to come out of discussions like this.

If you make a knife with bearings, many people (potential customers to companies and makers) have a perception that it will catastrophically fail.
Insert a steel racer and the anxiety level goes down...

Lock bar inserts. Yes, a Ti lockface will eventually wear out against a the hardened steel tang, but it takes a hell of a long time.
I am going to say without any hesitation that excessive wear and early failure are caused by poor geometry, and nothing else.
Get the geometry right, and that lock up will last longer then we need to worry about.

But, it's easier to have a steel lock bar and calm the anxiety. + you don't have to get that geometry so correct....

It's easier to innovate the fear and anxiety out then to try to talk it out.....

Agree. But spyderco and KAI are industry leaders. With an almost certainty, if either of those companies say something is wrong with a certain feature, there will be many other companies and customers who follow.

 

[bodog]

I agree 100% here. Just like ZT upgraded? / changed the lock bar and added a steel insert on some/most of there knives. But why did they do this? Was it just what the consumer wanted or was there truly an abundance of people who had problems with the lock bar w/out a steel insert?


I also agree that when a company considers an upgrade like this they weigh in the production costs, the increased cost to the consumer and potential warranty issues with and without the upgrade. A hardened steel bearing race (I would suppose) would be of vastly higher cost to produce than what the lock-bar insert did?
While justifying warranty claims do to bearing wear vs the production costs of fixing it, I think the clear winning strategy for them was to appease the few(prolonged carriers and hard users) that have issues or even the fewer who actually are projected to go through the channels of a warranty claim in the first place. ...for now..
My guess is, about this time next year you will see them producing bearing knives with hardened steel inserts..... to um...”keep up with the Jones's” so to speak.

I bet it's a cost saving measure made into a have to have innovation. It's a lot easier and cheaper to trash a poorly ground yet simple to produce steel lockbar insert than to throw away a full piece of almost completely finished 3D machined titanium with a poorly ground lockface.

I really believe that the end user probably shouldn't care unless the titanium lockface is poorly done and sticks a lot or if the steel lockbar raises the retail price but lowers the cost of manufacture. The cost savings involved in manufacturing SHOULD theoretically be passed on to the consumer unless they can market the cost saving idea as a wondrous must have innovation. I believe the same should probably apply to steel racers for bearings. Should the end user care either way? IMO, no, not unless they see it affecting them in some truly tangible way.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

Whatever happened to "less is more"? There are legitimate reasons for over-engineering, but most folding knives in ordinary use do not need it. I think there is a toy factor at work here.

 

[bodog]

Whatever happened to "less is more"? There are legitimate reasons for over-engineering, but most folding knives in ordinary use do not need it. I think there is a toy factor at work here.

Agree. It's like arguing about which shocks toyota puts on their 4runner model for off road use. Most people who drive toyotas would be good with whatever comes stock because they rarely if ever go off road anyway. The guys who are truly serious about off road capabilities will either modify the stock version or will research and buy whatever already does what they need without fussing about why a Toyota doesn't have it and will basically ignore those who defend the Toyota 4runner as an off roading beast. Putting the best and most expensive shocks on an average toyota sold to the masses makes no real sense, even if they are better than other brand. If they do it'd be like you said, a toy issue, not anything worth worrying about. And if someone goes so far to modify the shocks of a 4runner then they'll probably modify other things making the car unsuitable for everyday driving duties and they know why they did what they did and are happy with it.

To me some of these companies are akin to ford producing the raptor. Make a souped up version of a specific type of truck and sell it for high prices knowing the most someone will likely do with it is drive on some established, flat trail through the woods or on the beach somewhere. It's an expensive toy. That's fine for them to make something like that. Most real off roading vehicles look and act nothing like a raptor, though, and I don't see many off roading enthusiasts buying raptors. They take some old rav4 or jeep or something and modify the crap out of it. And dune buggies look nothing like a Ford raptor, so it's hard to figure out what ford was going for except hype and profit. If people buy one, good for everyone involved as those actually involved got what they wanted.

 

[GatorFlash1]

I am going to guess that a lot of this is driven by the fear and anxiety that seems to come out of discussions like this.

If you make a knife with bearings, many people (potential customers to companies and makers) have a perception that it will catastrophically fail.
Insert a steel racer and the anxiety level goes down...

Lock bar inserts. Yes, a Ti lockface will eventually wear out against a the hardened steel tang, but it takes a hell of a long time.
I am going to say without any hesitation that excessive wear and early failure are caused by poor geometry, and nothing else.
Get the geometry right, and that lock up will last longer then we need to worry about.

But, it's easier to have a steel lock bar and calm the anxiety. + you don't have to get that geometry so correct....

It's easier to innovate the fear and anxiety out then to try to talk it out.....

I agree 100%. And fear does sell. Just look at all the insurance companies and how much money they make! I think that in the majority of cases the fear is way overblown. It will be fun to see the comments in a few years about the rusting issues with the steel lockbars.

 

[Jens Schuetz]

I agree 100%. And fear does sell. Just look at all the insurance companies and how much money they make! I think that in the majority of cases the fear is way overblown. It will be fun to see the comments in a few years about the rusting issues with the steel lockbars.

Maybe never rusting H1 steel inserts will be the next marketing thing?


Also steel racers will make the bearing balls wear down faster than softer titanium. Why not insert copper racers which go soft on the bearing balls and could be replaced if needed.

^They can always come up with some new improvement. As long as we don't have data or test equipment inprovements will most of the time be made sounding plausible enough for many of us to buy in.

 

[Czechmate]

Why not insert copper racers which go soft on the bearing balls and could be replaced if needed.

That seems like a better idea IMHO.

I've thought for years that we'd see more end user replaceable maintenance items like pivots, stop pins, and lock face inserts readily available for purchase. Still wishing/waiting LOL.

 

[stabman]

One day some maker like KAI or Spyderco will start doing it and then everyone will come out of the woodwork saying how much better it is and how crazy it was to go without them, like steel lockbar inserts. For some reason knives were pretty ok without them, until they weren't.

You don't need steel inserts either.
For ease of manufacturing, and ease of replacing the lock insert when some doofus manages to screw up a perfectly good knife, sure, they're pretty great.

I have plenty of titanium frame-locks with no insert, and they're still working just fine. :thumbup:
I also have some with inserts, and they're fine also.

Strangely, all my knives with or without bearings, with or without inserts, somehow they all manage to function like...a knife.

 

[Silvanus]

I'll say that I have had the bearings on a ZT 0560 deeply gouge the Ti where they sit. However, it was completely 100% my fault and I was new to knives at the time. I was trying to do the Hinderer trick for centering the blade and cranked down the pivot with the blade at 90°. This caused the bearings to sink into the Ti. Then when I closed the blade with the pivot cranked down, it deeply scoured grooves into it. In the end, the knife wasn't ruined. It still functioned and still flipped. It wasn't nearly as smooth and I could feel little bumps from the divots the bearings made in the track. That put more wear in 30 seconds than most people will put in a year and the knife still functioned.

I guess my point is this. The Ti will wear from the bearings, but ultimately it will still function.

 

[K.O.D.]

If you are worried about knives with bearings, I would guess knives with free bearings like IKBS would be more susceptible to wear than caged, simply for the fact that I would assume there is more movement with them.