Band of Brothers

[Sufler]

I'm sure some of you have noticed that HBO is airing its 'Band of Brothers' series again. With the last episode, part #6 'Bastogne', I couldn't help but post and share this discussion with you. In the simplest of words: Would these guys have been better of if there was a more abundant use of bushcraft skills? Did they know more than the average person at the time? Of course. But, at the same time, I think that their stays in the foxholes would have been even a bit more comfortable (for the lack of a better word) if they were thought some of the things that we discuss here on a daily basis.

What are your thoughts on this?

Thanks.

 

[hoopster]

With the amount of gunfire and shelling they were experiencing I doubt it would have made a difference. I could be wrong but that's my take.

 

[cmdionne]

I wouldn't imagine that they knew any more than the "average" person at the time, as they pretty much were all average guys. While the country was more rural in those days, I would assume many of the GI's came from urban and suburban areas (granted the suburbs were mainly a post war invention).

I'm not entirely sure if they would have been "better off". I think they did alright the way they did things. Could they have made their foxholes more comfortable with some pine boughs for bedding? Sure, but they're still being shot at. Not to mention that all these improvements would take time, and they were never sure of when they would be moving forward. Why spend alot of time improving your position only to move on and have to make a new one and not enjoy all your work. A hole in the ground to keep me from getting shot seems nice enough to me.

 

[midnight flyer]

As an academic point of interest, this may be a legitimate question.

In reality, I wouldn't second guess what those guys went through to see if carrying a bush craft knife or Altoids box with fishing gear, a teeny knife and a metal striker rod in it would help.

They were losing digits to frostbite, they were unable to have fires since they would give away their positions to the enemy, they didn't have the proper clothing, little hot food (if any) some were nursing injuries that required more than just field aid, and all were literally fighting for their lives.

I wouldn't belittle the skills that many here have or practice. But I would certainly submit that the skills learned under extreme combat conditions are completely different. We are not in the controlled panic of combat. We are not thinking in the back of our minds that a false step on our parts could get a bullet to the head.

Now add the fact that many of us go out for a day or two, sometimes just an afternoon, and compare that they were on station in horrible conditions for weeks. (And let's not forget that incredible force march that their relief made with full gear to get to them in the same conditions).

When I use to do some distance hiking, my personal experience was that a nagging problem that starts out small ends up big. I tiny blister from a sock seam can become a big open sore in just a couple of days. And infected cut that would be little to worry about if cleaned properly and covered is a big deal if your first aid kit is lost. Craving for a hot meal can be huge, and remember that they were literally freezing to death for weeks, and losing fingers and toes to frostbite. Although we practice survival skills (safely though, we don't want the SAR guys looking for us) for an afternoon or a day or two, those guys did it for weeks while under fear of losing their lives.

I don't recall any here practicing their survival skills with little cold food, the wrong equipment, in below freezing weather while under fire. It isn't the same conditions at all.

Remember too, they were in defensive positions. So almost everything they did was being monitored by enemy soldiers. No freedom of movement, no fires, nothing allowed that would draw attention to their positions.

I don't think there is much more those guys could have done for themselves. I wouldn't sell them short on ingenuity to get by as well as they could, and certainly wouldn't second guess their efforts knowing their conditions.

Robert

 

[SamuraiDave]

If you want to read up on a war where Bushcraft skills paid of look no further than the Winter War.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War

Pretty much the Finnish soldiers were all country boys who grew up in the freezing cold, and Stalin was paranoid, so transferred a bunch of Conscripted solders in from Southern Russia.
The Southerners had no idea how cold it was going to be nor how to deal with it, and the bean counters/commissar's didn't care that they did freeze to death.

The result was that the Finnish kicked tail, although due to attrition had to sue for peace and eventually lost a bunch of land, but kept their country.

 

[hung-solo]

if you paid attention in that episode they were not allowed fires of anykind. no smoke of any kind. they couldnt do anything that would give the position of their fox holes up. easy targets for shelling and snipers. basically they were screwed the only thing they could do was bundle up...

 

[hung-solo]

As an academic point of interest, this may be a legitimate question.

In reality, I wouldn't second guess what those guys went through to see if carrying a bush craft knife or Altoids box with fishing gear, a teeny knife and a metal striker rod in it would help.

They were losing digits to frostbite, they were unable to have fires since they would give away their positions to the enemy, they didn't have the proper clothing, little hot food (if any) some were nursing injuries that required more than just field aid, and all were literally fighting for their lives.

I wouldn't belittle the skills that many here have or practice. But I would certainly submit that the skills learned under extreme combat conditions are completely different. We are not in the controlled panic of combat. We are not thinking in the back of our minds that a false step on our parts could get a bullet to the head.

Now add the fact that many of us go out for a day or two, sometimes just an afternoon, and compare that they were on station in horrible conditions for weeks. (And let's not forget that incredible force march that their relief made with full gear to get to them in the same conditions).

When I use to do some distance hiking, my personal experience was that a nagging problem that starts out small ends up big. I tiny blister from a sock seam can become a big open sore in just a couple of days. And infected cut that would be little to worry about if cleaned properly and covered is a big deal if your first aid kit is lost. Craving for a hot meal can be huge, and remember that they were literally freezing to death for weeks, and losing fingers and toes to frostbite. Although we practice survival skills (safely though, we don't want the SAR guys looking for us) for an afternoon or a day or two, those guys did it for weeks while under fear of losing their lives.

I don't recall any here practicing their survival skills with little cold food, the wrong equipment, in below freezing weather while under fire. It isn't the same conditions at all.

Remember too, they were in defensive positions. So almost everything they did was being monitored by enemy soldiers. No freedom of movement, no fires, nothing allowed that would draw attention to their positions.

I don't think there is much more those guys could have done for themselves. I wouldn't sell them short on ingenuity to get by as well as they could, and certainly wouldn't second guess their efforts knowing their conditions.

Robert

good stuff and sorry for saying basically the same thing

 

[Brad "the butcher"]

There was a reason the german soldiers worried when they found out they were facing Britains commonwealth shock troops (Canadian, Aussie, New Zealand)

back in ww1 and ww2 a higher percentage of the boys from there were from rural farming and hunting/outdoor backgrounds. They were already well versed in firearms and roughing it.
Farmers have lived " improvise adapt and overcome " long before the military quoted it.
They would be more adept at maintaining/repairing fireams, vehicles and gear.
Maybe not so much bushcrafting skills but hunting experience transfers to combat.

Moving silently, breaking up your outline, wind awareness and effective shooting etc. Anyone practical butchering/ meat cutting experience could be expected to have more awareness of where the vital arteries and organs are. Probably more mentally prepared to use a knife as well.
The FBI/Govt puts butchers/meat cutters, embalmers and premed types high on profiling if investigated or suspected of violence.

(HEY THAT'S ME.........being an exterminator now probably adds wood to the fire!!)

They found a 4th century or so roman treatise on recruiting and training soldiers and they stated that better recruits both mental and physical came from rural not urban areas. Went into a fair amount of detail on it.
Mirrors what we see today to a degree as well.

 

[ASBOB]

From what I've read, troops on the offense were less likely to build elaborate shelters, because they were constantly on the move. Those in static positions, even for a couple of days, quickly developed their area as fully as possible, given the circumstances and available materials and terrain. All soldiers learned, sometimes the hard way, that you dug foxholes, no matter how tired you were.

Small point: regarding post #3, American suburbs go back to the nineteenth century, and were well developed by the early 1900s.

 

[RoyalM]

Nice topic. I have found myself watching certain films/shows like this thinking what would I do better or different while still working within their limits of kit and situation. While I believe there is little that bushcraft could have done to help these guys the question of 'is bushcraft helpful in war situation?' is far more revealing.

Ray Mears has covered a lot of military stories where bushcraft played an important part. Sometimes it was just survival sometimes it was giving one side an edge in the field over their enemy. I believe there was a German commander in WW1 that used some bushcraft and local knowledge to beat far superior numerical British forces in Africa.

 

[STAGE 2]

In a word, no. I love camping and bushcraft and alike, but lets not kid ourselves. Knowing how to make fuzz sticks, snares, or build lean-tos doesn't means shart when mortar rounds are dropping in.

 

[Sufler]

I wouldn't imagine that they knew any more than the "average" person at the time, as they pretty much were all average guys.

I disagree with that portion of your statement because these guys not only went through basic training, but also jump school. I'm sure they were thought some sort of survival/evasion basics. Besides all that, they had already been in at war for such a long time that I'm pretty sure they had picked up a thing or two.

Could they have done more to make themselves a bit more comfortable? Probably. Was it utilitarian for them to do so?

 

[remmmm]

My guess is that there probably was some bushcraft going on, although probably not being called that, and it just didn't make it into the movie production. I'm sure there were those that had the skills from home and what works well would have been passed around to others.

BTW - for those that really like that series, the same producers have made a new one about the pacific. I can't wait :thumbup:

http://www.hbo.com/the-pacific?cmpid=s4

 

[akula83]

With the amount of gunfire and shelling they were experiencing I doubt it would have made a difference. I could be wrong but that's my take.

I would agree with this as a student of battle history. I think it would be very difficult to do anything but conceal movement and keeping their heads down while waiting to be over run at any moment. But out of total respect to the men who were there, I could only guess.

 

[Captain Spaulding]

It seems to me that the training that infantry goes through coupled with the ease of access to sites like this make for a (on average) better prepared soldier. On the other hand...they had less in the way of convenience and tech so they were more likely to have some of the skills that we discuss on this very board...many of us are revisiting bushcraft skills. My grandfather served in II and he always was whittling and hunting and doing stuff outdoors and around his small farm. I think that is partly because he loved it and partly because he had no other options in West Virginia.

 

[Bushman5]

hmmmm spend time playing around making shelters and doing camp crafts......or trying to keep their arses from getting blown off........???? choices choices.......

 

[Ramm9]

Would these guys have been better of if there was a more abundant use of bushcraft skills? Did they know more than the average person at the time?

Thinking about it, what skills do we know of or practice now that were not known of in 1944? What kind of skills do we talk about that they would not have made use of if they were able? No doubt they knew more than the majority of people back home since they had been learning from each other all along.

On the other hand...they had less in the way of convenience and tech so they were more likely to have some of the skills that we discuss on this very board...many of us are revisiting bushcraft skills.

"Revisiting" is a good way to put it, this stuff isn't new, it's been around for ages. With the exception of how to apply some new technology like Goretex, silnylon, and some stoves what else is discussed that's actually a new breakthrough and not a technological improvement?

 

[cybrok]

Great serie.

It was suggested to me by my W&S instructor.

I guess some skills would've allowed them to make better shelter to sleep in, maybe to build hidden fires. Some knowledge of edible plants to eat a little better.

 

[warrigal]

Don't forget this the directors interpretation of what it was like. How many times have we winged ( win-gde, colloquial Australian term for complained) about the inaccuracies of tv and movies.
I think there are accuracies about Farm kids being better in the bush ( although I do remember reading somewhere that when the Vietnam war moved into the cities it was the kids from the city's that lead and the farm kids followed their lead. Makes sense to me, from the safety of my armchair)
I also think under the circumstances of the battle of the bulge that at lot of troops were thrown in at very short notice. I was after all a surprise attack. There was a scene before the Band of Brothers blokes were thrown in. Where the troops that withstood the initial attack are moving back in shock. The BOB blokes are fleecing them of ammo because they don't have even a basic load out. Remember the medic doing the laps trying to find a pair of scissors? extra bandages and morphine?
There will always be those willing to carry a little something extra for comfort
Remember Petersen from John Wayne's "Green Berets" He took his Jammies to the firebase!
I took my Sea to Summit Pocket shower on my last Cadet field camp and with it and my shelter half improvised a shower, much to the kids amazement and the directing staffs disbelief. ( wait till I save up the sheckles for a Hennesy hammock).
Carl

 

[Halfneck]

I disagree with that portion of your statement because these guys not only went through basic training, but also jump school. I'm sure they were thought some sort of survival/evasion basics. Besides all that, they had already been in at war for such a long time that I'm pretty sure they had picked up a thing or two.

Could they have done more to make themselves a bit more comfortable? Probably. Was it utilitarian for them to do so?

They were cut off, short on supplies, and ill-equipped for the winter. As I recollect they did not have the proper gear for a cold winter & by the time they realized this they were surrounded & unable to get supplied by air.

Building shelters, and a fire would of helped a lot. Hell just staying in a building would of been better.

But Oh yeah, you have to man a defensive perimeter while remaining unseen so they can't target your fortifications with artillery, tanks & mortars.

I think they did as well as they could with what they had. From accounts I have read they layered themselves with whatever available blankets, clothing, newspapers/magazines, and leaves/evergreens they had. Being in a foxhole at least added some warmth & cut down on heat loss from the wind.

Bushcraft skills are helpful, but in a wartime scenario there are other rules you have to follow.

My fellow Screaming Eagles.:thumbup: