Basic Question

[A C Richards]

I just started making knives, and have never forged anything. Forging seems like too much work! I make knives to relax!

When I started making I had no desire at all to forge a knife. In fact I would skip over all the magazine articles that had to do with forging. Then I met a blacksmith and asked him to forge out some cable. He invited me to come over and do it myself, after he taught me some basics. After the first day I was totally hooked. Then when I made my first damascus billet almost 2 months later, there was no way to turn back. Forging to me is probably one of the most relaxing things I can do. I can get all my pent up energy out by beating on the hot steel. It is great therapy. So I guess you can say I make knives to relax also but find forging the best way to do it.

 

[drlozier]

Mr. Richards, Your last post is intriguing and I can not wait to have the experience you describe.....the idea of making damascus has been on my mind for a over a year now....wondering if I could actually do it....( need to break out of my comfort zone).... You mentioned forging out some cable.....I have seen a post or two about that and want to give it a try....any suggestions for my first effort ? Many thanks for sharing your experience.

 

[NDallyn]

With stock removal, the knife blank you cut out is going to be limited by the size of the barstock you have on hand.

You are limited in the steels that are available as bar stock.

Yes, but that goes both ways. What if you want to use S30V or another hi-alloy stainless. (and all the forging guys groan *ughh stainless*)

As for size limitations, that's why I get 6" x 36" sheets of stock whenever possible.

I play around with the forge from time to time, even made a bar of damascus on a 100# Little Giant (it's still sitting in a drawer, maybe I'll use it someday). Truth is it just doesn't appeal to me that much, same as grinding doesn't appeal to a lot of forgers. If what I'm making changes, my methods may change as well, but for now I'm happy with grinding unforgeable steel.

You can get a quality knife either way, and it is definitely not one vs. the other. My only advice is to try both and do what makes you happy.

Have a good one,

Nathan

 

[A C Richards]

Mr. Richards, Your last post is intriguing and I can not wait to have the experience you describe.....the idea of making damascus has been on my mind for a over a year now....wondering if I could actually do it....( need to break out of my comfort zone).... You mentioned forging out some cable.....I have seen a post or two about that and want to give it a try....any suggestions for my first effort ? Many thanks for sharing your experience.

DR,

You have a few great smiths out your way. You should get in touch and see if you can set up a time to swing a hammer. If you lived closer I would invite you out here. Nothing like forging out a billet and etching the blade for the first time. It comes alive and if the pattern was planned, and it worked the way you wanted, all the better. I put a 20lb billet of cable together today. I will probably forge it out later in the week.

Get it hot and hit it hard.

 

[Will Leavitt]

Don't forget Batson's is coming up 2nd weekend of April (9-11), there may be a few people that could learn ya to swing a hammer or something like that....

 

[drlozier]

Thanks everyone. Excuse my lack of awareness but where/what is Batson's....and how can I make myself more "aware" of such things ? thanks again

 

[Will Leavitt]

Batson's is a large hammerin held at Tannehill State Park near Birmingham, Alabama hosted by the Alabama Forge Council and the ABS. It's 3 days long with a lot of vendors and tailgate sales of materials and tools. There'll be all sorts of demos, they haven't posted the list of demos but there should be a hands on smithing class. The state park has it on their calendar as 9-11 April, the Alabama Forge council has it for the first week of April but I doubt that because it's Easter weekend.

 

[drlozier]

Thanks ! I will try to get up there...sounds like fun !!

 

[Jim Adams Customs]

Some guys just hate grinding so much that we snap and start beating the metal with a hammer
Seriously, I forge because I like it a lot more than I like grinding. And no matter how I look at it, it bothers me to make a knife and see 2/3 of the steel I started with laying on the floor in the form of dust. I'm just funny that way, I guess.

I make integrals, Where You take 26 pounds of steel grind everything away to make a 6 oz knife.

 

[Samael]

OK, somebody has to say it, and I guess I'm elected. Stock removal doesn't affect the molecular make-up of the steel. I think forging does. I think I could actually come up with studies that prove that to be true, but it's late.

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

Indeed somebody did have to say it. I for one am dying to see any studies that prove that forging effects the molecules of steel.:thumbup: Let's see... the next element up from iron would be cobalt, squeezing iron into cobalt should make a killer blade . Or would forge welding two iron atoms together make Tellurium?

But then we are talking about metal molecules though, perhaps the hammering could tighten the iron molecular chains, or breaking the covalent bonds in the matrix may allow them to recombine in a better way... perhaps with metallic bonding?

 

[Tait]

Anybody have electron microscopic pics of carbon steel after stock removal versus carbon steel after forging?

I'd be curious to know the difference...

Tait

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

Tait, SEM or TEM resolutions are not necessary and many optical micrographs are available showing the effects of cold working metals. But there we get into the semantics of what you are looking for. Forging by definition is above recrystallization temperatures, while cold working is below. Cold worked metal will have dramatic differences from material that is not. There will be heavy elongation of the grains in the direction of working causing an increase in directional properties (anisotropy). At higher magnifications there will be a banding effect from massive amounts of slip plane activity and twinning, plenty of twinning (the mirror like deformation of plains of atoms in order to accommodate the strain). On the sub-microscopic level there will be a massive increase in dislocations in the atomic plains and vacancies, resulting in hammered metal actually being slightly less dense than steel that is not cold worked.

But all of this is in cold worked, not forged, metal, and the images that are so common are to illustrate the negative effects of cold working and are side by side with images of the same metal after normalization to correct these issues. Just one heat to the recrystallization temperature will hit the reset switch on the metal, forming all new crystalline arrangements and putting you back to square one.

Since proper forging is done above both the recovery and recrystallization temperatures, none of these effects accumulate. And if deformation is great enough dynamic recrystallization driven by it will keep grain growth under control, conveniently making the whole thing a wash. Even if a smith were careful to cold work entirely, any thermal treatments at all following this would partially or totally undue any of the effects. Even low temps (tempering, stress relieving etc..) would effect the dislocations and strain energies, and anything involving austenite (annealing, normalizing, hardening etc...) would by necessity redo it all.


Samael, I have been thinking about my last reply, and have considered the possibility that you may not have been joking, in which case my totally fun reply may not have came across correctly. If you were joking you will see the humor, but may find this post offensive in suggesting you may not have been. On the other hand if you were serious, the last post is even more awkward than this one. Sorry about that.

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

Indeed somebody did have to say it. I for one am dying to see any studies that prove that forging effects the molecules of steel.:thumbup: Let's see... the next element up from iron would be cobalt, squeezing iron into cobalt should make a killer blade . Or would forge welding two iron atoms together make Tellurium?

But then we are talking about metal molecules though, perhaps the hammering could tighten the iron molecular chains, or breaking the covalent bonds in the matrix may allow them to recombine in a better way... perhaps with metallic bonding?

Wow man, your tounge is so thoroughly in your cheek it is about to poke out the side.

Metal molecules... nice....

Hey, when you finally go completely off the deep end and the guys in the white coats come and carry you away... Can I get one of your salt pots. Please? They're not going to let you take them with you... *shrug*

 

[drlozier]

Thanks everyone. After posing the question and considering all responses I have concluded that in forging,the higher macroscopic (not micro) are more syntactically elaborate, while in grinding, they symantically involve a hierarchy of compounded indices pointing to whole gestalts of attributes. Seriously, is it really a matter of personal preference or is there some science on this ? I am a newbie and really do not know. Thanks again.

 

[A C Richards]

It was once thought that forging produced a superior blade due to edge packing and grain realignment etc. However since some have taken the call to verify these claims most if not all have been brought into serious question (read debunked). Since a normalizing heat can rearrange the molecules both processes can produce a quality blade. In fact most of the current cutting competition blades are stock removal while in the beginning most were forged. While forging there are far more ways to mess up a blade than in stock removal. Excessive heat being the main culprit. The biggest reason I forge is 3 fold. I make damascus steel and this is the only way short of explosive bonding to do it. Next I can use non bar stock forms of material, like round or square, and forge it into a blade rather than grind away far too much material. Finally and most importantly, I love to forge. I would rather forge than any other process in the knife-making world. So you need to decide for yourself weather or not you take that next leap and start beating on hot steel. In my opinion it really is a matter personal choice.

 

[SShepherd]

indeed somebody did have to say it. I for one am dying to see any studies that prove that forging effects the molecules of steel.:thumbup: Let's see... The next element up from iron would be cobalt, squeezing iron into cobalt should make a killer blade . Or would forge welding two iron atoms together make tellurium?

But then we are talking about metal molecules though, perhaps the hammering could tighten the iron molecular chains, or breaking the covalent bonds in the matrix may allow them to recombine in a better way... Perhaps with metallic bonding?

rotfl

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

I will readily admit that I didn’t dumb down that last post much at all, but in my defense I have typed expanded, step by step, explanations on this more than just about any other topic and I am running out of strength to keep typing on it. I even wrote an article on my website that breaks it all down quite well in hopes that folks wouldn’t have to retype volumes on the basics anymore, but that really hasn’t been all that successful in helping alleviate the problem. So instead, this time I went for brevity and efficiency by just using the terminology that allows one word in place of a paragraph of explanations.

Years ago nonsense like edge packing was actually taught at hammer-ins, but as our craft gathered more people and sophistication most saw such misinformation as an embarrassment when they were reminded that they were taught the basic principles to see through the absurdity in Jr. High science. Today it is a good sign that our craft is maturing when the words “edge packing” are mostly used in a satirical manner.

This very thread is a most encouraging sign of how far bladesmithing has come when you think that it took until the second page for these concepts to even be mentioned in the forging versus stock removal discussion; this would not have been the case ten or fifteen years ago. Despite the wearisome typing, it does bring a smile to my face to see how far bladesmithing has come in just a short time.

 

[Phil Dwyer]

COSTS
It's been said the cost are about the same: more cost for steel in stock removal verses fuel costs for forging. I wonder if it really does wash out as about breaking even? Are setup up costs the same? Does forge, anvil, hammers and tongs equal grinder(s)? As for materials and consumables there more than just steel and fuel. Belts, for one, sure can put a dent in the budget.

PREFERENCE & FUN
It seems like the main reason folks seem to forge is pleasure. I'd go further and say blacksmithing is probably humanities oldest craft. It has come with us through the ages. To think that as little a handful of generations ago our entire economic-cultural-social existence was completely dependent on blacksmiths. They literally kept the world moving. They aided us into agriculturally generated capacities to support formation of towns, villages and cities and therefore, the means to develop numerous trades. There's nothing like the primal archetype of forging to inspire romance, passion and pizazz across a diverse panorama of folks from all walks of life. Pound a bit of steel to make a blade and you become part of the oldest and noblest traditions of all time. One catch I've seen though, is that, as many folks have said, it's their most favorite aspect of knife making. And there lies the rub. It's not uncommon to meet folks who love forging blades a whole lot more then making them into knives. Be careful....don't end up with drawers full of pounded blades and very few finished knives.

SKILL
I'm not sure this has been spoken to much yet, but skill levels probably come into play too for some folks choices. To tell you the truth I find both stock removal and forging damn near impossible for me to do well! Come to think of it, fitting the handle and hardware not easy either. Sheath making isn't a piece of cake either. Heck just sharpening a knife is a bugger. Why am I making knives again? Never mind how!

QUALITY
This aspect probably breaks out into a few subcategories:

• Method: This is about as charged an aspect as it gets. Most folks say they're both (fabrication--stock removal/grinding/milling--or forging) equal if they are both done right. That it seems to come down to the heat treating methods no matter which method is used to get the blade shaped. As I understand it, others, particularly some forge folks, believe they can get a superior blade via various intensive and meticulous forging and heating cycles. Metaphorically speaking, sometimes the sparks get flying and the heat gets intense over the subject. Dialog often comes round to debates of concepts such as science verses art, etc.
  .
• Materials: As we've heard there are distinct differences between stainless and high carbon steels...and different techniques are employed to manipulate them. Then there's the pattern weld or laminated or damascus steels, which obviously require forging. Again, we often hear how forging isn't limited to stock dimensions. To tell you the truth though, the lions share of forged blades seem to be coming out of pretty much the same bar stock type materials as the stock removal guys use, maybe a little thicker though. There seems to be a whole lot more 1/4" x 1" or 1.25" or 1.5" bar stock being sold then heavier round or square stock for instance. And again, there aren't many smiths left who can "read" steel and "feel" their way into it almost intuitively based on years (if not generations) of practical sensual experience with steel. Thus, almost to the person, you'll hear the axiom, "use known steel," which is sound advice!
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• Market: I believe this is probably one of the most important aspects of the discussion. By market I not only mean the knife buyer, but the knife user. How will the knife be used? What qualities will be important? What methods will best produce them? Types of knives and uses separates things out pretty fast. Kitchen cutlery is vastly different than weaponry, which is different than hunters, which is different than surgical, etc....
  
  And the steels, methods, shapes, etc vary for each. Here is where most questions and decisions probably get made. Here too is where many of the differences of opinion and position perhaps arise. What type of knife? What use? What does the maker like? What does the user prefer? From what I've seen, it seems the last two questions (maker and user) find their answer in each other. Thank gawd or there wouldn't be many knives being sold or bought!

 

[drlozier]

Gentlemen, thank you VERY MUCH for taking the time to elaborate to a newbie on a topic that apparently has a lot of history, discussion, and evolution. Had I taken the time to read up on it in other sources I probably could have educated myself....but that's what makes this forum so great for a beginner like me.... a bunch of guyes like you readily willing to share your years of hard earned experience...it really helps the learning curve......I am very grateful and look forward to being one of the guys who answers more questions than he asks. Thanks again !!