Basic whetstone

E

Ed Pursell

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Jul 16, 2023
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Basic question, for non high end sharpening of every day knives, using low end whetstones(1000 and 6000 grit), is it better to pull the knife of push? I’m 67 years old, got a ton of knives and Wife got me a basic whetstone “kit” for birthday present to sharpen my kitchen and every day knives I got… I tinkered with stones 40 years ago, didn’t have too much luck, but retired now, thought I would play with the stones again…. I did like 5 so far, actually got fairly sharp using a pulling method, but seems like Videos I’m watching, almost everyone pushes the knife? Is one way better or more efficient? Blade edge pushing or pulling? Thanks for replying and understand this is a new learning thing for me to play with..

Ed
 
Back and forth to sharpen quicker. Always the way to go when your knife is truly dull, vs. just needing a tiny touch-up.

Edge-leading (whether that's pushing or pulling depends on which way the edge is facing) to touch up a knife, or to refine a finished edge on a finer grit, like your 6000, which is quite a fine grit.

Edge-trailing only on strops, for a final removal of the burr. Before you go to the strop, alternate edge-leading strokes on your finest-grit stone, at decreasing pressure, until you can hardly feel the burr.

Denim works great as a strop. You don't need to buy anything special.

I suggest stopping with the 1000 for your kitchen knives. Going finer than that can be counterproductive except in special cases.
 
Ed Pursell said:
tinkered with stones 40 years ago, didn’t have too much luck
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Same here (in the beginning when I was between 10 and 30) . Now , after another thirty some years I enjoy sharpening very much and easily make edges that are more effective than anything I could have ever wished for or imagined .

FINALLY I discovered the secret of sharpening pretty darned dull knives , and especially trying to do it by hand , is to start with a coarse enough stone ! ! !
That would be around abouts at least 220 grit . I find that going as low as 60 or 80 sure gets 'er done a whole lot faster and easier .

1,000 grit ? That could , maybe, be OK to get a somewhat dull knife sharp again . One that you have previously taken through all the more coarse stones and made a "properly formed" edge on . DO NOT COUNT ON THE FACTORY TO MAKE A PROPERLY FORMED EDGE .

6,000 grit ? Well that is in the realm of splitting hairs and shaving ; in other words you can make edges that are very satisfactory without the 6,000 .

To sharpen very dull knives enough to where they cut tomatoes nice with these two stones alone boarders on fantasy . Unless , as I said, the edges were nicely formed to start with and not very dull . Still . . . with time . . . you will need to use the more coarse stones to "correct" the bevels after several sharpenings on your very fine stones .

Keep in mind THEEEEEE BEST info on sharpening is in the blue area at the top of this  Mantenance , Tinkering & Embelishment sub forum . They are called "stickies" and they stay at the top of the list no matter how many new threads are added .

By the way I realize you said you were getting edges that were sharp . I find that most people's test for sharp is to drag their thumb perpendicular across the edge . I have never been able to decipher what that tells them .

Here is a reliable test for sharp at this link . With experience and much practice it can tell you when an edge is rolled and to which side it is rolled and is a fine enough test I can tell , without cutting anything , an edge that is sharp enough for most tasks from an edge that can take two curls off an arm hair while it is still in my arm just from how it feels on my thumb nail.

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OK
That's not what you asked but I had to get it out first .
Which direction ?
To start in on a dull edge both directions (it's faster).

If the steel alloy is NOT STAINLESS or is very high quality and , relatively , quite hard stainless then you can finish both directions.

if the steel is stainless and especially cheaper / softer stainless then you will need to finish edge leading .

[ [ after you have cut the bur off on medium stones (at this point I would call a 320 to 600 stone medium) ] ]

A bad bur can seem sharp , maybe , cutting hair off your arm but will quickly fold over when hitting a cutting board etc. and then perform like a dull edge , which it is after the bur folds over .

Learning to PROPERLY debur is crucial ! ! !

HOWEVER nice HARD , higher alloy (or at least higher carbon) blade alloys actually sharpen MUCH EASIER than softer less tough steel . Easier meaning : takes less skill to sharpen than the cheap steel .

Use fairly high magnification (10x or 12x) to keep an eye on what is actually happening at the edge . [ do I have a bur ? Is it curling to one side ? Is it wide or minute ? When I attempt to sharpen the edge am I effecting the actual edge or am I abrading the blade higher up / on the side of the blade ?

Even when you think you have debured the edge it can come back in the final passes ; even when going edge leading (against the edge) .
Case knife stainless steel or something called N690 can drive you insane !

My final advice BOTTOM LINE is to buy an Edge Pro Apex sharpening jig .
Learn to use it .
Easily , and with little SKILL, produce edges that you will be frightened to have in the same room with you .

THEN try sharpening hand held on a stone on the table top .
The EDGE PRO APEX will show you quickly and easily what you must learn to duplicate with your hands alone .

Personally , even though I can now sharpen by hand , I just use the sharpening jig .
As my " signature " at the bottom of the post says : good enough is good enough but better is better .
 
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Thanks for the replies and tips! I’ll probably pick up way coarser stone since all that came with the “kit” the Wife got me was the 1000 and 6000 one combo stone. And I’ll continue to play with the technique.. Being retired since January, I got lots of time for stuff I’ve been neglecting, also into fishing and pistol shooting! Thank all! It’s a start….
Ed
 
For anything done on stones, I always use edge-leading (push). And as has been previously mentioned, for any stropping afterward, I use edge-trailing (pull). That includes times when I've laid a piece of plain paper over the stone to use as a strop.

Another niche in sharpening involves using wet/dry SiC sandpaper to shape the bevels and apex the edge. That's best done using edge-trailing strokes (pull), to avoid cutting the sandpaper and also to prevent the paper from rolling around the apex and rounding it off. With practice and by securing the paper very snugly to a hard backing, very light edge-leading passes (push) can be used for refining the edge and deburring.
 
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If my knife isn’t real dull and I am just touching up the edge I push into the blade. I have found that pulling it away makes the apex jagged like tearing micro bits away from it whereas pushing into the blade is better supported by the metal behind the edge. When and if I strop I pull across because it isn’t as aggressive and takes away the tiny burrs.

If my edge is very dull I go both ways to remove more metal to get the profile set and then finish with pushing till it gets sharp , more refined and remove the burr.

On most of my knives I don’t go too fine as I like a micro toothy edge that is more aggressive and lasts longer with a working edge. As i use it , it becomes less toothy but still has a sharp edge. On knives I use for cutting and whittling fine details i go with a finer grit to get a smoother edge and sometimes carefully strop it to a very smooth edge. Of course I use diamond sharpeners because most of my knives are harder type steels requiring a harder abrasive plate or rod.
 
1000 and 6000 sounds like waterstones. The proper technique for using a waterstone is to scrub back and forth, applying pressure on the trailing stroke and releasing pressure on the leading stroke. I would recommend finishing on the 1000 with edge trailing strokes then using nothing but edge trailing on the 6000 for the best result.

Watch one of the old Murray Carter videos on YouTube. He demonstrates good technique and usage of a 1k and 6k stone progression.
 
Just to toss in one comment. It’s all about the burr. Years ago I tried sharpening by hand. I didn’t get it… I never fully raised a burr. You will never sharpen a knife satisfactorily without one. A nice corse stone will insure your success in creating a burr. Then, you have to remove it…. Completely. You should be able to feel most burrs. When in doubt I shine a bright flashlight from the spine to the bevel on each side. If there’s a burr, you will see it standing proud.
When raising the burr, try to keep the apex in the middle… same strokes, pressure on both sides. Trailing, leading, back and forth, doesn’t matter much unless there junk knives, then leading for sure. The old school of thought was edge leading. Now days there is evidence it doesn’t matter so much.
As mentioned above, a guided sharpening system can really create some impressive bevels and crazy sharp knives.
It can be as simple or complex as you want to make it.
 
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Gottagofishn said:
Just to toss in one comment. It’s all about the burr. Years ago I tried sharpening by hand. I didn’t get it… I never fully raised a burr. You will never sharpen a knife satisfactorily without one. A nice corse stone will insure your success in creating a burr. Then, you have to remove it…. Completely. You should be able to feel most burrs. When in doubt I shine a bright flashlight from the spine to the bevel on each side. If there’s a burr, you will see it standing proud.
When raising the burr, try to keep the apex in the middle… same strokes, pressure on both sides. Trailing, leading, back and forth, doesn’t matter much unless there junk knives, then leading for sure. The old school of thought was edge leading. Now days there is evidence it doesn’t matter so much.
As mentioned above, a guided sharpening system can really create some impressive bevels and crazy sharp knives.
It can be as simple or complex as you want to make it.
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I agree with every thing you said ; pretty much what I said .
NOW
with that in mind I wanted to comment on a couple of things (I am not contradictiing you but it may sound like it) .
I pretty much always go for a slight bur when I reprofile or just touch up an edge . Helps me keep track of what I am doing .
BUT
in reference to :
You will never sharpen a knife satisfactorily without one.
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Good O' Cliff Stamp would beg to differ . I don't sharpen this way (much) and I never "destress the edge" to remove stressed steel .
However here is another way to go about it .
I didn't actually get what he was going for entirely until just this last year when I had a very thinnly reprofiled LC200 knife I had been fooling around with (I call it testing) . I was testing to see just how "tough" the steel is by using a stupid thin edge (fairly gentley) . First I noticed the edge had gotten microscopically flattened at the edge . I noticed this because on my thumb nail sharpness test it seem to have a slightly rolled edge to BOTH SIDES . How can this be ? Well the edge was flatened so it had a micro "corner' on each side of the blade .

OK
Before I fully realized what I was looking at / feeling on my thumb nail I tried my cut a curl off the end of my fingernail test . I easily cut the curl every time ! ! !
What the ????
The edge geometry was so thin and accute it could still perform this "cuttng" task and yet the edge was technically "dull" .

Cliff talks about the very edge being not fully apexed (I don't remember his exact terminalogy) but the knife is able to cut dirty carpeting for a very long time . He has a YouTube showing just how many cuts he gets and it is crazy how long he goes .

anyway here is the vid about how he sharpens (not the carpet cutting) .
and it is """"posible to sharpen an edge and never raise a bur """" .
Again not trying to be a butt but wanted to provide another perspective .
Again . . . if I were to go sharpen right now I would raise a bur and then cut it off just as you described .

 
Wowbagger said:
I agree with every thing you said ; pretty much what I said .
NOW
with that in mind I wanted to comment on a couple of things (I am not contradictiing you but it may sound like it) .
I pretty much always go for a slight bur when I reprofile or just touch up an edge . Helps me keep track of what I am doing .
BUT
in reference to :

Good O' Cliff Stamp would beg to differ . I don't sharpen this way (much) and I never "destress the edge" to remove stressed steel .
However here is another way to go about it .
I didn't actually get what he was going for entirely until just this last year when I had a very thinnly reprofiled LC200 knife I had been fooling around with (I call it testing) . I was testing to see just how "tough" the steel is by using a stupid thin edge (fairly gentley) . First I noticed the edge had gotten microscopically flattened at the edge . I noticed this because on my thumb nail sharpness test it seem to have a slightly rolled edge to BOTH SIDES . How can this be ? Well the edge was flatened so it had a micro "corner' on each side of the blade .

OK
Before I fully realized what I was looking at / feeling on my thumb nail I tried my cut a curl off the end of my fingernail test . I easily cut the curl every time ! ! !
What the ????
The edge geometry was so thin and accute it could still perform this "cuttng" task and yet the edge was technically "dull" .

Cliff talks about the very edge being not fully apexed (I don't remember his exact terminalogy) but the knife is able to cut dirty carpeting for a very long time . He has a YouTube showing just how many cuts he gets and it is crazy how long he goes .

anyway here is the vid about how he sharpens (not the carpet cutting) .
and it is """"posible to sharpen an edge and never raise a bur """" .
Again not trying to be a butt but wanted to provide another perspective .
Again . . . if I were to go sharpen right now I would raise a bur and then cut it off just as you described .

Click to expand...
I haven't watched the video yet, thanks for posting though. I mis spoke when I stated you always get a burr. Hard or brittle steels can develop a "negitive" burr. Where the burr breaks off as it forms.
Cliff is amazing at his craft.
 
Was. He passed away a few years back.

(If I recall correctly, Sal Glesser doesn't recommend creating a burr, but that's a whole other kettle of fish. There are many roads to Dublin, as a friend on another site likes to say.)
 
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