batoning folder????

[BlackShark]

Strider GB.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

can a twistmaster b used?

The plastic with deform readily, a large Voyager is much more robust.

...or how about a crkt m-16?

Not if it behaves like the Point Guard I handled, even the LAWK's is easily collapsed.

Reading the articals I get the sence that these are last ditch survival techniques. They will indead work, but are considered (even by the author) to be abuse to the knife.

Was the knife damaged?

I would think that doing that aggressively on a routine basis would be hard on just about any folder.

Collapse the lock if that is a real concern :

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y269/CliffStamp/Spyderco/paramilitary/baton_paramilitary.jpg

It is less effective this way as my pressing down on the handle you direct more force into the cutting, but with the lock released the strain on the lock is none and just the pivot pin is loaded.

I assume the reason you want to baton is that you are planning to use it in an aggressive manner or at least you plan to use it to cut something that can't be easily sliced.

It doesn't take much wood to prevent you from just being able to press/rock the knife through it, unless you want to whittle it off in shavings.Even just light batoning as in wrist/elbow swings will allow you to cut much more wood than just pressing the knife through it.

That is correct, and the technique is certainly not abuse in any sense, at least with regards the RSK MkI or any other well constructed reasonably robust folder.

How hard are the swings, wrist, elbow, shoulder or back? Small baton like a broomstick or larger like a 2-3" stick.

-Cliff

 

[Critter]

How hard are the swings, wrist, elbow, shoulder or back? Small baton like a broomstick or larger like a 2-3" stick. -Cliff

Well, we went at it with vigor using about a 2-inch baton and split a bunch of wood, going through a few batons in the process. I suppose if you really wanted to and were a gorilla, you could do some damage to the knife. With concerted effort you can destroy anything. Once saw someone try batoning with a rock. Not recommended. However, in my experience it take a fair amount of control to baton efficiently and safely, thus limiting, for any modestly sized folder, the size of the baton and force excerted to prevent damaging yourself in the process, hardly conducive to enjoying or surviving any wilderness experience. Thus to a degree with a typically sized folder, it is somewhat self-limiting.

Doug Ritter (remote London - COSPAS SARSAT JC Meeting)

 

[Brian6244]

I am surprised nobody mentioned a CRK Sebenza. That's about the strongest most solid folder I have ever had the pleasure of wokring with. I have an RSK MK1 too and I think it would hold up fine as well, though admittedly I have never tried.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Thanks Doug, on a knife that size, as you noted there would be grip stability issues with really heavy force plus the blade isn't so large enough that you can get really wide swings like you can with a 10" camp bowie and be precise, well I can't anyway so then your extra energy isn't fully utilized.

My main concern would be can you just take clear wood or can you handle the extra effort it takes to split around twisted grain. Can you baton with the same effort you would use on a small puukko for example? I should get some mpegs made to enable clearer communication. I really like the design by the way, no speed holes.

You should develop a mini-sharpmaker with Spyderco which is more packable and mainly for smaller blades. Cut down on the options as it is mainly a touchup kit so you could really trim out a lot of the features of the full Sharpmaker, sissor sharpening, etc. .

You could cut the length of the rods in half for small folders, or dual sinter them (half medium, half fine), to reduce size / weight. You would also want a well padded package as ceramics don't take to being banged around, or do a mild steel ceramic covering which is far more durable.

-Cliff

 

[Critter]

Thanks Doug, on a knife that size, as you noted there would be grip stability issues with really heavy force plus the blade isn't so large enough that you can get really wide swings like you can with a 10" camp bowie and be precise, well I can't anyway so then your extra energy isn't fully utilized.

My main concern would be can you just take clear wood or can you handle the extra effort it takes to split around twisted grain. Can you baton with the same effort you would use on a small puukko for example? I should get some mpegs made to enable clearer communication. I really like the design by the way, no speed holes.

Thanks. I am a bit confused, and I can't say we batoned with it into anything particularly wierd, but some of the wood was also not nearly perfectly straight. Beyond that, I'm not sure I understand what you are after. The trick with batoning is to let the knife and baton do the work and not get impatient and try to twist the blade, on either axis, to split the wood. Another common mistake is to try and do too large a split. Patience and moderation are very much virutes in such wilderness skills, partiuclarly when usin g a folder vs a fixed blade, but even then a slim fixed blade can be easily damaged or broken if one is not careful.

You should develop a mini-sharpmaker with Spyderco which is more packable and mainly for smaller blades. Cut down on the options as it is mainly a touchup kit so you could really trim out a lot of the features of the full Sharpmaker, sissor sharpening, etc.

You could cut the length of the rods in half for small folders, or dual sinter them (half medium, half fine), to reduce size / weight. You would also want a well padded package as ceramics don't take to being banged around, or do a mild steel ceramic covering which is far more durable.

Well, there's the Gatco Mini-X which is essentially what you describe, though with a single fixed angle. It is not a typical pull-through vee sharpener, contrary to most folk's expectations, but is used much as a Spyderco Sharpmaker is. We also have some ceramic coated aluminum sharpeners, though they currently use a pair of carbides as a primary sharpening tool. In any case, I have been looking at some sharpener ideas for future development, just a question of time to work further on them.

Doug Ritter (remote London - COSPAS SARSAT JC Meeting)

 

[bama_lou]

I have not felt Mr. Ritter's knife, but basing on the quality of Benchmades I own and have felt, I must say that batoning (on a case to case basis of course) should be one of the least of the user's worries.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I'm not sure I understand ...

In regards to twisted grain, some woods like apps is very clear with open grain, so much so you can basically let an axe fall on it and it splits. You can take fairly decent sized rounds, 4-6" and just whack them with a bowie and they split. Cedar is like that as well, pine similar when clear but it usually isn't.

Some woods like spruce however don't run that way, the grain isn't vertical and it is the grain that has to split, this is more of a problem when wood dries as then it tends to twist, but even on fresh spruce the grain can sometimes twist and thus make splitting near impossible. If the grain takes a sudden arc, the blade can't follow and thus ends up having to chisel through the wood, or bust the grain, both take huge loads.

The worst case I have see was trying to split some wood which had been cut, dried and then was later soaked as it was left out in heavy rain. I had moderate sized rounds, ~12", take the full head of a splitting maul and two steel wedged before they would crack.

It is why you are often better off going with easy to split wood, even when wet, once you have a fire going as the split wood will dry rapidly next to a fire and it can take easily ten times more effort to split a bad piece of wood and in most cases you are better off just debarking it and letting it dry for another day, assuming you can get a fire going without it of course.

Anyway I have a feel now for what you are saying, I think so anyway, do be clearer we would need some mpegs or similar to put the vigor into perspective. I think I'll see if I can't get some made soon because this comes up a lot and people have a lot of different ideas on what batoning actually means.

Have you done similar work with the large Sebenza? The hollow grind is pretty deep and leaves the edge fairly thin so I would be concerned about less than clear woods.

...not get impatient and try to twist the blade, on either axis, to split the wood.

In most cases, you can't really apply much force because there is nothing holding the wood in place. You are pretty much constrained to just using your wrist. Leveraging the knife up and down or attempting to rotate it would do little to the knife or wood,

Except in extremes of course, I recently split a bunch of cedar with a Manix and did so by just pressing the knife into the wood and then rotating my wrist to twist the blade and thus pop the wood apart. This was effective mainly as the blade on the Manix is so wide it produces a decent amount splitting ability. Something less robust like a SAK might be problematic, plus it would not be overly effective anyway because the blade is too narrow.

However yeah if you tried to pry sideways you could readily break most thin blades, 1/8" and similar. If your knife gets stuck don't do that, either work it vertically, or better yet have a small wooden wedge carved before hand and use it to further open the notch.

Splitting is also more about wood selection and cut placement, or at least as critical in that area as tool gains. Someone who ignores knot structure and just blasts his maul into the center of every piece of wood will have a much harder time on a lot of woods than someone who takes advantage of the grain and has a much slimmer axe. As with everything else, get out and do it, the more you do, the easier it will get and the more effective you will become, and the less dependent you will be on tools versus your personal abilities.

-Cliff

 

[OTguy]

In response to spyder's original question, if I had to have a folder to batton, I would get a Buck 110 and practice my technique before spending big money on another brand. Expensive folder + bad technique = broken knife, no matter the make. Would like to understand why you need a folder for this, battoning is generally a wilderness thing and in the wilderness you can(and I think should) carry a decent fixed blade of your choice.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Would like to understand why you need a folder for this ...

It is more of an unplanned thing, make do with what you have.

-Cliff

 

[Longstrider]

It is more of an unplanned thing, make do with what you have.

-Cliff

I've been there and found that I could happily split stright grained wood of up to about 5" diameter with my trusty 110 without it suffering any noticable damage. The larger wood obviously involved having to baton on the back of the handle next to the pivot, (NOT recommended practice!) as the wood was thicker than the length of the blade, but done with care the knife still seemed to take it all in it's stride. Tougher wood or larger wood can easily be attacked by starting the split with the knife and baton, then swapping to a ready prepared wooden wedge and the baton. As the wedge opens the split, take the knife away and hammer all you like until the job is done.
I'd still prefer to use a good fixed blade if I had to baton, but a little care and thought will see a folder serving pretty well if it has any real "backbone".