Batoning...Why?!

[aktrekker]

They used a froe, not their knife.

 

[Shotgun]

They used a froe, not their knife.

And I contend that a lot of the knives designed to be batoned are just fancy froes with a handle. Because, what's the difference? One's at a higher hardness? Okay, but with some of the modern steels the idea that "you can't use a piece of steel at x hardness or it will break" is being blurred more and more. Do what you like. It's a bit funny how much people care what others do.

Edited to add that the science and consistancy of heat treating has come as far as steel in the past 100 years as well. It's a bit different to have temp controlled furnaces and cryo treatments to the good ole "looking for straw color" in your shed out back.

 

[Hammer67]

I'm already looking forward to next week's batoning thread.

 

[sicily02]

What is a knife, what is a sword, what is long knife, what is machete, parang , bolo and ever other piece of steel with a handle on it?
If you want to call it a froe, or a knife or what ever go for it.

It is still the same damn thing. A piece of steel that is pushed through a piece of wood to slice of another piece of wood. That is it.

And all the old timers did that same thing to slice off a piece of wood. It is FACT and nothing else but FACT. It is what they did and what we still do today.

Cutting and slicing wood is FUN. Embrace it and enjoy it all. Get out there and cut some wood and have a fire and roast some hotdogs and have some tea or coco



Bryan

 

[stabman]

Cutting and slicing wood is FUN. Embrace it and enjoy it all. Get out there and cut some wood and have a fire and roast some hotdogs and have some tea or coco

Bryan

And you, good sir, have officially won the thread.

 

[Codger_64]

...I would like to ask a serious question.
Nobody here (I hope) would ever consider deliberately placing themselves in a real survival situation (like heading into the deep woods with only a knife).
So why would you deliberately place yourself in a situation where you only have a knife?

Curious that you consider heading into the woods with only a knife to be placing oneself in a "survival situation". I've even gone with no knife and survived just fine. Almost always easier with a knife, but a knife can generally be made if/when the need arises.

 

[Hammer67]

Curious that you consider heading into the woods with only a knife to be placing oneself in a "survival situation"....

And with one seemingly harmless, well-intentioned observation, Codger threatened to derail 2/3 of all knife sales...

 

[aktrekker]

Curious that you consider heading into the woods with only a knife to be placing oneself in a "survival situation". I've even gone with no knife and survived just fine. Almost always easier with a knife, but a knife can generally be made if/when the need arises.

True. But how many knife addicts do you think have developed that skill?

Generally being stuck with just one knife means you have lost all your gear and all you have is what is on you, meaning a real survival situation. OK, for some here that might still be more than one knife, but for the do-everything one-tool solution guys it generally means only one knife at your side - a big one.
A single knife, to me, means that instead of having different tools for different jobs you now have to make do with less. Whatever you have will not be ideal for everything you need to do, so survival becomes more difficult.
This is what I meant. Sometimes it's hard to get the idea across.

 

[RUNIT]

Almost always easier with a knife, but a knife can generally be made if/when the need arises.

Say what? How you gonna make a knife in the woods?

 

[sicily02]

Thanks, Stabman.

 

[Codger_64]

Say what? How you gonna make a knife in the woods?

How did American natives make knives before Europeans imported/introduced them to steel? They had and used knives for thousands of years before steel came to the continent. I've gutted and processed critters with stone knives and scrapers. Sometimes found and used as-is, sometimes flaked and knapped and even hafted. Bone makes a decent knife for some tasks as well as does tempered wood and shell. And then there are "detrius" knives. It is not that hard in much of North America to find midden (trash) piles from Native Americans or prior European settlers up to modern times. A piece of glass or a piece of steel or a tin can can be fashioned into a cutting instrument in short order.

Generally, it is only a situation where survival is at risk if you don't have the knowledge and creativity to do without some manufactured item that you may have left behind, lost or broken. Heck, evan a caveman could do it!

 

[RUNIT]

How did American natives make knives before Europeans imported/introduced them to steel? They had and used knives for thousands of years before steel came to the continent. I've gutted and processed critters with stone knives and scrapers. Sometimes found and used as-is, sometimes flaked and knapped and even hafted. Bone makes a decent knife for some tasks as well as does tempered wood and shell. And then there are "detrius" knives. It is not that hard in much of North America to find midden (trash) piles from Native Americans or prior European settlers up to modern times. A piece of glass or a piece of steel or a tin can can be fashioned into a cutting instrument in short order.

Generally, it is only a situation where survival is at risk if you don't have the knowledge and creativity to do without some manufactured item that you may have left behind, lost or broken. Heck, evan a caveman could do it!

All this seems even more outlandish than a real "survival" situation. Guess a shovel is better tool just in case I have to dig for a knife!
So when the need for a knife arises then it is time to find/make one? Yes I agree that a knife is not mandatory to go walk in the woods but I am sure not too many people have ever had to actually survive for more than a day or two with their "knowledge and creativity".

 

[Codger_64]

All this seems even more outlandish than a real "survival" situation. Guess a shovel is better tool just in case I have to dig for a knife!
So when the need for a knife arises then it is time to find/make one? Yes I agree that a knife is not mandatory to go walk in the woods but I am sure not too many people have ever had to actually survive for more than a day or two with their "knowledge and creativity".

It only seems outlandish if you have not the knowledge, skill or creativity. I am likewise certain that many people over the years, entire cultures in fact, have done just as I described. I have done it and I am certainly not unique among humans. Yes, stone tools were semi-disposable and that is why they can be found still in old hunting camps and village midden piles. Often they were made as the need arose, crudely worked if at all, then dropped when no longer needed.

Why on earth would one build a brush shelter when excellent tents are widely available? Or even sleep in a modern tent when there are houses and motels everywhere?

 

[Thomas Linton]

It only seems outlandish if you have not the knowledge, skill or creativity. I am likewise certain that many people over the years, entire cultures in fact, have done just as I described. I have done it and I am certainly not unique among humans. Yes, stone tools were semi-disposable and that is why they can be found still in old hunting camps and village midden piles. Often they were made as the need arose, crudely worked if at all, then dropped when no longer needed.

Why on earth would one build a brush shelter when excellent tents are widely available? Or even sleep in a modern tent when there are houses and motels everywhere?

Flint is available one place in Ohio. Otherwise it's shale, sandstone, limestone, and glacial erratics. Ohio flint was traded west of the Mississippi. Perhaps that is why Ohio was sparsely populated before Europeans became dominant.

The "the knowledge, skill or creativity" is perishingly rare for the reasons you imply.

 

[Codger_64]

Yep, not all materials are available naturally in all areas. Thus the ability to recognize locally available materials and adapt is important.

Of course the posession of a manufactured tool that one prefers is nice, regardless of environment.

 

[jbass]

All this seems even more outlandish than a real "survival" situation. Guess a shovel is better tool just in case I have to dig for a knife!

Note to self: Remember the shovel. Remember the shovel.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Then there are the beer bottles. :thumbup:

 

[Hammer67]

Then there are the beer bottles. :thumbup:

Yup - lots of modern knappers use beer bottles.

You could also use the shovel to dig up a fiber optic cable and make one of these:

http://makezine.com/2010/07/16/primitive-knife-knapped-from-fiber/

 

[Codger_64]

Then there are the beer bottles. :thumbup:

Caught knifeless, I have field dressed a deer with a broken bottle in a swamp where there were no rocks to use. Breaking the bottle was not easy however, but it did finally and it worked.

 

[DOC-CANADA]

I swear, this is the last batoning thread I ever get sucked into. Batoning isn't just about splitting logs. It is used for different techniques when processing wood. Some techniques can be seen here as ably demonstrated by Mors Kochanski. I know a lot of people were taught knifecraft by their fathers/ grandfathers, whatever, and I'm not knocking this but it's time to expand your horizons. The fact that I can't find a single, well known survival instructor that doesn't teach batoning, speaks volumes, at least to me, and this includes the likes of:

• Ray Mears - page23 of 'Bushcraft - An Inspirational Guide to Surviving the Wilderness'
• Chris Janowsky (R.I.P.)
• Mors Kochanski
• Ron Hood (R.I.P.)
• Les Stroud (as per his new book)
• Jeff Randall (as per page 77, November 2000, Tactical Knives
• George Jasper - Six ways in & 12 ways out (USRSOG page 110
• Cody Lundin (as per page 175 of 98.6)

On top of which, many knife manufacturers tout their knives as being quite capable of batoning, including one of my favourites, seen above, Bryan Breeden.

The bottom line is if you don't want to do it, don't but please turn in your hallway monitor buttons.

Doc