Batoning with a rock?

[SouthernCross]

G'day PorcupineMtns

...
I found 10 foot sections of dead wood. I then found a big tree that grew forked not far from the ground. I wedged the 10 footers in the fork of the tree and proceeded to crack them into sections. Some of the 10 footers just exploded at the crack point and little bits of wood flew around which I gathered up for tinder.

I agree, this technique works well and is possibly the most calorie efficient way of breaking up wood (as can be seen below )

[youtube]XQEgOwpDXhI[/youtube]

... Others were clean breaks but short enough to micro manage a constant fire overnight. Those that broke cleanly (but with a jagged end) tended to have a crack that could easily be split apart with a rock wedge if not your hand. Almost all can be split by whacking the little sections on a hard rock with the right profile.

Don't forget that kindling can also be made by propping one end of rotten timber up on a log and stomping on it

[youtube]928mnpV5M6E[/youtube]


However, it still raises the point that Battoning still seems to be only considered when it comes to preparing wood




Kind regards
Mick

 

[SouthernCross]

Purely as a general comment.

I think what is being demonstrated here is that most really only have experience in one type of environment

It seems to me that there is a general trend in posts like this that if something doesn't make sense in the only environment individuals have experience with, then the idea doesn't have merit

It is only after you have experience in a variety of environments that your eyes are open to alternatives

Eg.

If a person only has experience in a natural environment where fresh water is abundant, what would they know (or for that matter care) about how to find water during a drought

If they only venture into areas that have mobile phone access, then a mobile phone is a important piece of survival equipment. If you venture into areas that have no mobile phone reception, then a mobile phone is an unecessary weight that isn't worth carrying.

Get my drift




Kind regards
Mick

 

[OwenM]

Get my drift

Sure, it's Prac/Tac for rural environments. Yuckie, huh?

 

[cybrok]

I've seen Ray Mears baton with a rock, but the rock was actually his knife (flint knapping). And he was doing it carefully.

That's the only non-stupid way to baton with a rock IMHO.

 

[Mack]

Purely as a general comment.

I think what is being demonstrated here is that most really only have experience in one type of environment

It seems to me that there is a general trend in posts like this that if something doesn't make sense in the only environment individuals have experience with, then the idea doesn't have merit

It is only after you have experience in a variety of environments that your eyes are open to alternatives

Eg.

If a person only has experience in a natural environment where fresh water is abundant, what would they know (or for that matter care) about how to find water during a drought

If they only venture into areas that have mobile phone access, then a mobile phone is a important piece of survival equipment. If you venture into areas that have no mobile phone reception, then a mobile phone is an unecessary weight that isn't worth carrying.

Get my drift




Kind regards
Mick

Thanks, I've been trying hard to say this. :thumbup:
If we're talking about bushcraft I'll agree. There is little reason to baton and less reason to baton with something other than a piece of wood.
If we're talking about survival(this is a survival sub-forum I believe) there may be a reason to beat your knife through something.
I doubt you are going to be in a true survival situation near your home that would require you to do "stupid" things. You may though, be put in a survival situation at any time and in any place. You need to have the mindset that says "I'll do whatever the hell I need to in order to get through this". Then you can look back and tell your grandkids how stupid you were.:thumbup:

 

[stabman]

So, is this a bash Bear Grylls thread or a W&SS thread?
In a survival situation, where you have no other baton, would you use a rock? I would. My life is more important than the spine of my knife.

To do what, baton other rocks?
Like a previous guy said, if you're batonning wood, that means that there's wood around.
Why not use some of it?

 

[stabman]

I agree, ya gotta do what ya gotta do. Is there some scenario where the rock baton is the only way? I guess so. Maybe a deserted island with one coconut and a rock. And you left your boots back on the sinking ship. But I'd work pretty hard to find another means to open that nut before I hit my knife with a rock.

Why not just bash open the coconut with the rock, and save the knife for something useful that rocks cannot do?

 

[Joezilla]

congrats on keeping this civil guys!!!

 

[SouthernCross]

Why not just bash open the coconut with the rock, and save the knife for something useful that rocks cannot do?

Just suppose you are after the water inside the coconut as the only water source available in the area you have found the coconut.

In which case, tip first battoning of your knife will open a hole in the coconut without spilling any of the water.

Smashing it open with a rock risks loosing some / most of the water.




Kind regards
Mick

 

[stabman]

Just suppose you are after the water inside the coconut as the only water source available in the area you have found the coconut.

In which case, tip first battoning of your knife will open a hole in the coconut without spilling any of the water.
Smashing it open with a rock risks loosing some / most of the water.

Kind regards
Mick

Could be.
Or, one could search for a pointier rock!

I suppose there are some conceivable circumstances where batonning with a rock would be necessary, but they have to be remarkably rare.
If I had to in order to survive then yes (I'd do lots of things I'd rather not in order to survive).

 

[udtjim]

I can't believe that the only options here are to baton with a rock or allow yourself to starve to death or freeze to death, I don't think that there is anyone here who would not use a rock if they had to baton and that was the only choice available. I also can't believe that anyone here is dumb enough to use a rock to hit their knife if a good wooden baton or something much more suitable than a rock is available. Common sense goes a lond way toward surviving any situation, our advantage over the other animals is the ability to learn from the past, both our own, and that of others.

 

[koyote]

I'm loving some of the tangents in this thread.

The environmental bias is a good point. I do often, in various types of posts- especially gear and psk related- try to emphasize my environment (like the simple fact that unless I go up into the foothills, there's no absolute need for fire down here. it's a priority, but far lower than it is for someone up in marchanistan )

A few things come to mind-

One I've brought up before is the perception some people have that batoning necessarily means beating the snot out of your blade. This misperception is huge!

I mention chiselwork often. I find that batoning, as a chiseling technique, is incredibly useful in bushcraft. Of course, we have a lot of oak here!

For splitting, grind matters a lot more than overall thickness of the blade, and I will state flat out that you can pretty much rely on a convex grind to safely be batoned for wood splitting. The mechanics of the edge alleviate a lot of binding tendencies and maximize the wedging forces. This increases the utility, safety, and efficiency of batoning. It's entirely possible that people who haven't had a lot of joy with batoning are using tools not particularly well suited to the task.

A side note of this comes into the hatchet/hawk versus batoned blade for wood splitting debate. For small kindling and big tinder, I vastly prefer a baton process- as does pitdog. But, I tend to have fairly long, thin, convex blades for the purpose. Tapping actually works for that. When dealing with a blade thickness of .25 or .30 inches for a knife in general, you have a lot of mass to move. And if it's not a good wedging grind, it can turn out to be a nightmare.

To extend the analogy, you don't tap a splitting maul. you whale on it. The choice of tools matters a lot with what kind of experience you end up with.

This may be one reason I surprised a few people by shrugging a bit about the rocks. I still think it's less than ideal and which type of rocks you choose is crucial. Granite that crumbles into landscaping cover the moment you hit something with it is less than useful!

(yes, batoning with a 1/4 inch full convex grind works out fine, it's heavy and you have to hit pretty hard, but it's also very axelike in cross section at that size.)

Spelling note. I've decided that since baton has one T, it must either be

Baton, Batoning, Batoned

or

Baton, Batonning, Batonned.


Any votes?

 

[kgd]

I miss Minanthropist, with his hot dominatrix girlfriend and the fact that he used to baton his mora #1 through lead pipe Why did he do it? Maybe his girlfriend told him to do it...Would anybody else question that?

Agreed with Koyote - I far prefer batoning a thin (like a 1/8" thick leukuchete) to a 1/4" (like an RD-9) chopper. In fact, for the difference in mass, the fat choppers are only slightly better at chopping then thin choppers and you have to whack on them way harder to sink them into wood when batoning. The only think fat metal is good for is prying. But lets face it, when you start getting into 10" lengths, the amount of lateral force you can put on a blade is very high. Even with 1/4" metal, I don't really want to leverage my full weight on a 10" blade and 5" handle. For batoning, give me a machete or 1/8" long blade and I happy as can be!

 

[stabman]

For batoning, give me a machete or 1/8" long blade and I happy as can be!

That's a very short blade!

 

[kgd]

That's a very short blade!

Good for toothpicks

 

[Rotte]

Why not just bash open the coconut with the rock, and save the knife for something useful that rocks cannot do?

Stab --

I've tried bashing coconuts (from a tree) with a rock. They are surprisingly tough devices. Machete works great and is the go to coconut opener in my book (no baton required). You can also pierce them with a strong sharp stick to get the liquid out. A really big rock will do the trick, but it'll take some work.

But, yes, I get your point and agree, there is probably an alternative to whacking (or tapping) your knife with a rock. And I haven't read any other scenarios where a rock and knife are the solution yet.

Koyote: I like the double-N spelling, as in using a baton while batonning.

 

[Gadgetaholic]

However, it still raises the point that Battoning still seems to be only considered when it comes to preparing wood

I think the reason for this is obvious - this is a knife forum and we like using our knives!

I think it is funny that some posters think that those that say they would never baton with a rock mean that they would never baton with a rock - that isn't what it means at all! I guarantee that at LEAST 9 out of 10 people that post here saying they would never baton with a rock would definitely baton with a rock if they HAD to, what they mean is that unless it is the only way then they would not do it. In a survival situation where you have no choice but to mess up your knife if you want to survive then you will do just that.

Why don't we just try to understand that "never baton with a rock" means "I will never baton with a rock because I would never have to" which leaves unsaid but definitely meant "but if I ever were proven to incorrect and my life depended on me batoning with a rock then I would do it".

Why anyone would think that a poster here really means to say he would override his own survival instincts to keep his knife in good condition is beyond me.

 

[LMT66]

G'day PorcupineMtns
I agree, this technique works well and is possibly the most calorie efficient way of breaking up wood (as can be seen below )

Don't forget that kindling can also be made by propping one end of rotten timber up on a log and stomping on it

However, it still raises the point that Battoning still seems to be only considered when it comes to preparing wood

Kind regards
Mick

You run a smart camp Mick! You didn't even need to break out a Fallkniven! :thumbup:

 

[myright]

Stab --

I've tried bashing coconuts (from a tree) with a rock. They are surprisingly tough devices. Machete works great and is the go to coconut opener in my book (no baton required). You can also pierce them with a strong sharp stick to get the liquid out. A really big rock will do the trick, but it'll take some work.

But, yes, I get your point and agree, there is probably an alternative to whacking (or tapping) your knife with a rock. And I haven't read any other scenarios where a rock and knife are the solution yet.

Koyote: I like the double-N spelling, as in using a baton while batonning.

That's got to be a marketed tool at some point in the future. Such a great name

 

[NRaiano]

LMAO, I thought you meant batoning with a rock instead of a knife when I saw this thread. I would never do this unless I didn't give a shit about my equipment and just wanted to come across a ruthless. I'm sure it's slightly more effective considering rock is a denser less shock absorbent material than wood(fossilized wood being the exception!) but if you're planning on getting a decent amount of use out of your knives and like to keep them looking pretty I wouldn't recommend it. I'm sure he gets the best of quality equipment brand new every time he jumps out of that chopper!
Best,
Gabriel.