Battery acid is bad

Yeah, mete, ignorance is bliss until they find you dead, isn't it? .....

Reminds me of the time the guy in the production buildng next door interconnected the ethyl acetate tank to the nitric acid. I heard the emergency alarm go off and looked out my 2nd floor window only to see people racing out ahead of that really pretty orange cloud of gas.... sure did kill that little patch of grass out front! Fortunately no one was in any immediate distress, but who knows long term?

Two months later the same idiot did it again, and they fired him. They didn't like it when I proferred that the idiot they should fire was the design engineer who'd allow interconnection of the two liquids and the management who didn't correct this after the first incident. Why not just interconnect the nitric and acetone tanks and have done with all of us?

The phosgene release is another story.......
 
This forum never ceases to amaze me. Damn what an education. I now know about baking chocolate chip cookies and what not to do when painting my john. Oh and also to keep my fine blades away from battery acid. All in the same thread ;)
 
fitzo said:
jsmatos, I wasn't ranking on you at all, and sorry if it came off that way. I was a chemist in a past time, and saw people with PhD's in chemistry do stoopid stuff like that all the time. One day an overeducated moron decided to neutralize something in his fume hood with bleach. It gave off a huge bunch of gas, went straight out the hood vent, traveled along the roof and got sucked into the freshair intake for my office. (Poor airhandling design, we found out!) I got gassed pretty bad, and coughed for months. There was some lung edema.

That's all I was thinking of, no insult intended. One needs to be very careful mixing bleach with anything. the chlorine can evolve in a couple chemical forms such that when it hits the lungs it combines with the moist surface and forms hydrochloric acid, definitely not good for bio-tissues.
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No problem, I appreciate your clarifying that for me. This is so outside of my field of knowledge that I'm probably a bit insecure. I think men have more exposure to the various chemicals; and therefore, they have more motivation to learn about the ways various chemicals interact. The only chemical interaction I have is with bleach and windex in my house. I don't mix any of my cleaning materials so I don't have to worry about it. I'm not excusing my ignorance just explaining it a bit. I know that there are a lot more women getting into the sciences, and I'm glad to see it. I'm just not one of them. :D

Anyhow, I'm glad that I wasn't totally off my rocker with the acid/base dynamic. I knew I was probably going to get a lesson or two from the BFC gents before I was through. :D I had a feeling that Gollnick would be one of them since he mentioned on the chiropractic thread that he teaches (or directs a program in) physics. His knowledge seems to be about as well rounded as a person can get. Thanks Gollnick. :)

It just goes to show you, you don't go to lawyers to talk about chemical compounds. :eek: :D
 
Wow, Jennifer, I just checked your profile, and we share a birthday! It's separated by a couple decades is all....:) Happy next..... :D

I worked for Abbott Labs, the biggie pharma company. We had quite a few attorneys with a BS or MS in Chem followed by a law degree in whatever form, usually patent law. Even had a number of MD/JD's to try and scare off the lawsuits. :eek:

Ever watch the Food Network and Alton Brown of "Good Eats"? He gives some pretty fair explanations of what I call "kitchen chemistry." If you happen to like cooking, check it out sometime!
 
Hello Fitzo, You might be interested to know that Johnniet also shares our birthday. I think that Ren has one within a day or two of ours. :D

You are certainly correct that there are attorneys that are very knowledgeable in the sciences. I had a few friends in law school that wanted to specialize in patent law. From what I gathered, the patent exam is extremely difficult. I went the extra year, after law school, and earned my LL.M. in tax law. I just finished it fairly recently so we'll see where I go from here. :D

I haven't watched Alton Brown. The only one I've ever watched is Emeril. That's probably because he's Portugese and reminds me of my dad. I'm a halfie. ;) They seem to have the same humor. :D I'll have to watch Alton Brown sometime. Maybe he'll teach me enough not to embarrass myself next time. :D
 
You didn't embarass yourself. Embarassing would have been when you tried mixing bleach and battery acid without asking to find out first what would happen. Though I must admit, that kind of moron behavior seems to be the realm of boys and chemistry sets! (Don't ask!!)

Good luck with your tax law. Should be some good positions available out there, especially after a couple year's experience!

If you are half "Portagee", as Emeril likes to call himself, you should go into the knifemakers area and seek out Indian George. He's a fullblood from New Bedford and that Massachusetts area full of Portugese-Americans that originated because of the fishing industry. Don't tell me later I didn't warn you, though.... :D

Nanc and I watch Emeril every night, right after Iron Chef. Entertaining shows!
 
Gollnick... mentioned... that he teaches (or directs a program in) physics.
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Actually, my background is in applied physics and engineering, but I now direct a parochial elementary school. We offer 3-year-old preschool through fifth grade.

They get into a little physics, but not to far. And I don't teach since I'm not licensed. Basically, I raise the money and they spend it.

And if you ever have some extra money to get rid of, I've always got my hand out... it's tax-deductible, you know.
 
You can neutralize acids without evolving poisonous gasses if you pick the right base, for example sodium hydroxide. One problem is that real strong bases can be every bit as dangerous as strong acids. When I worked in the Caltech physics department I developed a chemical milling technique to use on our submillimeter telescope surface that used a 10% sodium hydroxide solution. For epoxy bonding the reflector skin onto the telescope I used a sulfuric acid and sodium dichromate solution to pre-etch the bonding surface. I think I burned myself more with the sodium hydroxide (base) solution than I did with the acid. I used to keep a 33 gallon trash can full of a baking soda solution around to jump into in case of emergencies. That quickly neutralizes acids and less quickly neutralizes bases. Strong acid--base neutralization reactions also create intense heat. If you poured sulfuric acid into water the water would get hot and might boil. If you poured it into a sodium hydroxide solution it would almost certainly cause steam bubbles and spray out hot sodium hydroxide solution.

It is surprising that the VG-10 was marred so fast by the acid. It just goes to show that cutlery stainless is a very different product than 304 stainless used in bowls. VG-10 is not one of the stainless alloys with the highest chromium content. You might do a little better with one of the 440 series or N690.

While wiping on a shirt may help the knife, it is very hard on the shirt. One of the things to know about sulfuric acid is that it does not evaporate as fast as water. When you expose a drop of dilute sulfuric acid to the air it gets stronger rather than weaker as time passes. The water in the solution evaporates and leaves concentrated acid behind. Sodium hydroxide solutions do the same thing. You might get a few drops of dilute acid on your clothes and later find it is burning your skin.
 
Remember the rash of abuse in India where the husbands would throw battery acid on their wive's faces, scarring them permanently and often blinding them.

it's a bit off topic, but it's the one painful thought that always pops into my head when I have to handle the stuff.
 
Here comes the science... ;)

Neutralizing a solution of sulfuric acid via adding sodium hydroxide yields sodium hydrogen sulfate, or sodium bisulfate:

H2SO4 + NaOH -> NaHSO4 +H2O. Sodium hydrogen sulfate has a pH of about 1.4. Better than the 0.8 found in a car battery, but if this is vaporized, which the heat of reaction may well, your lungs are toast.

Using bleach is little better. Sulfuric acid plus sodium hypoclhorite gives off water, which is fine, sodium sulfate, which is mildly toxic, and chlorine gas. Chlorine in your lungs hurts like hell. Trust me, a faulty fume hood introduced me to that fact in high school.

H2SO4 + 2 NaClO -> 2 H2O + Na2SO4 + Cl2.

I haven't done any real chemistry for a couple years, but I believe the above formulas to be right.
 
Fitzo mentioned phosgene.I don't know the formulas but here's a story. When I was in gunsmithing school a sutdent came in and mentioned that he wasn't sure he should work on the lathe , he was ill. I started to ask questions which lead to the following . He worked in an area that had a trichlorethylene degreasing tank .I was very cold at that time so they put one of those portable heaters in the room and as many as 20 people became ill, NONE of them knew why.When trichlorethylene fumes come in cantact with flame or sparks it converts to phosgene gas ( one of the first chemical warfare items used in WWI ).In my work as a metallurgist I've often met welders who had no clue of this problem and would weld with a part still dripping with degreaser !!!
 
Wow. This is the REAL informative thread.

I came in here to look at pictures of a damaged knife and got a science lesson. :)

Seriously, though, I communicated for a couple of years through chat & email with a guy who said that when he was in college, he knew some guys who cleaned their bathroom by using bleach, ammonia & whatever else they could get their hands on and then were surprised by the toxic cloud they created. They are now probably reproducing. I hope they learned their lesson the first time, because otherwise, I fear for their children - and their neighbors.
 
I've often met welders who had no clue of this problem and would weld with a part still dripping with degreaser.

Freon being subjected to heat created by oxy/acetylene torches can also form phosgene.
Another welder that I was working with about 15-20 years ago received permanant lung damage in this type situation, although the exposure was rather short, and was in a confined space.
 
Got some on my Delica once. I was trying to cut one of those safety-cap things out of a bottle of industrial strength drain cleaner, to avoid splattering it on me, and it ended up staining my blade. Not as badly as some of the stuff you folks have mentioned, but it wasn't a good thing either way.
 
Clorine + Ammonia = Phosgene, or at least the main ingredients of Phosgene (that's what we were told, anyway). For those of you who are non-military types, Phosgene is a very common nerve agent used by many militaries around the globe. Cheap, easy, and very, very deadly.

Don't ever mix that stuff...
 
A correction regarding phosgene...

Phosgene is not a nerve agent. It is extremely toxic nonetheless. It is COCl2, carbonyl chloride, most often made by reacting carbon monoxide with chlorine gas. It is so toxic because when exposed to the moisture in the lungs the reaction reverses, so you get both chlorine gas and carbon monoxide in your lungs at the same time.

How's that for an effective chemical agent?
 
dry cleaning fluid also makes phosgene if you have a hot metal catalyst
i never checked what process that was tho :)

h2so4 + 2naoh -> 2h2o + na2so4
i don't see what's so bad about this?

i'm not surprised about people knowing about the bad things that can happen but still doing stupid things
the information goes in but it just doesn't interact with the rest of the brain
i've seen people using a drying agent and leaving the container open next to a window while it was raining :rolleyes:
 
Acid is tough stuff, I had an accident in chem lab in high school, a bit of some acid (never new which kind) sprinkled on my hand from a test tube that someone left unmarked and unattended, I felt a burning on my hand and wiped it on my white coat, then put my hand under running water, the skin of my palm peeled off and there was a big hole left in my coat, luckily there was no permanent damage.

I don´t remember much chemistry but if I recall correctly what we had around in chem lab and were told to use in cases like my accident was sodium bicarbonate.
 
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