Bear encounters

Ulf Krogstad said:
If I come in contact with a charging grizzly no way choosing spray over rifle. Why take the risk of dying. If their coming at you they have only one intent and that is to kill you.

We don't have grizzly around here so that's nothing I have to worry about.
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well we do and after a 30+ year career working in grizzly country I can unequivocally tell you that bear spray is much more effective in a charge than a firearm; it sprays a wide fog (~ 30') and has been a very well proven deterrent for charging bears- firearms have a rather weak record, with many resulting in death

if need be, carry both- but I'd be grabbing for the spray first and the firearm second
 
mtwarden said:
well we do and after a 30+ year career working in grizzly country I can unequivocally tell you that bear spray is much more effective in a charge than a firearm; it sprays a wide fog (~ 30') and has been a very well proven deterrent for charging bears- firearms have a rather weak record, with many resulting in death

if need be, carry both- but I'd be grabbing for the spray first and the firearm second
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mtwarden, that was always my thinking, too. And I like the idea that at the end of a bear spray encounter, everyone can go home, including the bear.

But it seemed noteworthy that here in the course of one week we had two encounter where bear spray didn't work and firearms did. Now, I haven't learned why the spray didn't work, e.g. operator error, expired, weather conditions, but regardless of reason, it was not effective. The idea that spray is "well proven" is now questioned in my mind. I know there are cases where it seemed to work. And I know there are cases where firearms worked, too. "Much more effective"? Not with these two.

It's been a bad year for Grizzlies: 2 killed, 3 hit
 
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I found a link to the to the study by Dr's. Smith and Herrero where the efficacy of bear spray was demonstrated: Efficacy of Bear Deterrent

A couple years later in Alaska, a group of NOLS students were attacked with four injured by a grizzly. They were carrying bear spray but couldn't deploy it. Note, that's not a lone hunter, but a pack of teenagers. There was an uproar at the time (2011ish) that the kids should have been carrying firearms. If you can't get your pepper spray out, I'm not sure a firearm will be any better, but clearly the Alaskan community thought kids shouldn't be playing in the woods without an adequate firearm.

Also, the Smith study doesn't find that spray is more effective than firearms, just that spray seems to be effective.
 
mtwarden said:
well we do and after a 30+ year career working in grizzly country I can unequivocally tell you that bear spray is much more effective in a charge than a firearm; it sprays a wide fog (~ 30') and has been a very well proven deterrent for charging bears- firearms have a rather weak record, with many resulting in death

if need be, carry both- but I'd be grabbing for the spray first and the firearm second
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I don't doubt your experience but I trust the law of physics before the law of deterrent. If I'm betting my life, I'd rather place it in the hands of a .12Ga Slug (or two or three) than a can of spray. I know a couple of law enforcement officers that work on the Canadian border in the back country that patrol on ATV's and stay over night on occasion and they both carry 12ga pumps loaded with 1 oz slugs.
 
obviously every situation is going to be different, no two the same; but with firearm encounters with a grizzly roughly half the people were injured, with bear spray that number is just a couple of percent

I'm a firearms instructor and I can tell you that a charging grizzly doesn't make for an easy target and if you do happen to hit your mark there is certainly no guarantee that you'll stop that charging bear- a 30' wall of oleocapsicum is easier and more efficient in my experience

I'd certainly rather have a firearm in an encounter than nothing, but would rather have bear spray if given the choice- if you're extra cautious- carry both, be proficient with both
 
This video has been posted in here before and it's an hour and seventeen minutes of straight talk about going into bear country.

[video=youtube;PExlT-5VU-Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PExlT-5VU-Y&feature=youtu.be[/video]
 
Ulf Krogstad said:
If I come in contact with a charging grizzly no way choosing spray over rifle. Why take the risk of dying. If their coming at you they have only one intent and that is to kill you.

We don't have grizzly around here so that's nothing I have to worry about. Black bears are timid. Can't think of single story of someone being mauled by black bear around here. I remember a hunter years ago who claimed he got surrounded by pack of wolves though. Saw a big black wolf during the day after harvested a deer. Was about 50 yards away from me. But they also just run when they see you to. Got a different one on game camera. Some pics of eagles too. There is wolf scat everywhere so know there are more around. But they always are, just don't always see them. Heard some howling very close to me when was sleeping tent this summer. That's kinda spooky. But chances are they'll leave you alone unless rabid or staving. Want to try to get some on video here soon.
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I as well don't take black bears quite as seriously as grizzlies but at the same time they shouldn't be underestimated; they're still bigger, stronger and faster than any of us. Here in BC we have the highest concentration of grizzly bears south of Alaska, but black bear mauling's still made up 40% of all bear attacks in province so far this season (5 black bear/7 grizzly) and accounted for the only fatality. We had 4 grizzly bear mauling's in my corner of the province just in September, all hunters, all armed and none of them managed to get off a shot that mattered. Bear spray is still the gold standard for protection up here, sometimes with a firearm acting as a backup.

There was an attack last year on a couple of Alberta hunters in BC and while one guy managed to shoot the bear (not that it stopped or dropped dead) he also shot his parter through the knee. If I'm on the ground with a bear on top of me I'd rather a face full of capsicum than to take a round...
 
Danke42 said:
This video has been posted in here before and it's an hour and seventeen minutes of straight talk about going into bear country.

[video=youtube;PExlT-5VU-Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PExlT-5VU-Y&feature=youtu.be[/video]
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Yeah, that's a good video. These people have tested a lot of this stuff. In terms of physics, well, a gun shoots a very small projectile along a linear path while the spray puts up a very large area of effect. Sure, the bullet does huge damage, but unless you are extremely precise during that intense situation you may only anger the bear.

Of course, you need quick access to whichever weapon you choose. Best case would be to deploy the spray at range, 50 yards or so, and then have a shotgun backup if for some reason the spray does not work and the bear gets in close range. In a surprise scenario you may not have time for either, or it may simply escalate the situation. Then your experience and ability to react properly is best, along with a road/bear flare as backup.

Some will laugh, but the most effective in tests with grizzlies was actually a large piece of plywood. This acts much the same way as an umbrella against a running dog, all but the trained dogs will back off or become scared by an opening umbrella (dogs and bears are closely related). I mention this because it is very similar to how the spray works, it is unexpected and very confusing to animals who never see other animals fight in this way. In a group situation where you cannot carry weapons, having one person with an umbrella may actually be one of the most effective defenses, as counterintuitive and absurd as some will see this suggestion (I wouldn't recommend it on your own, carry spray, a flare, and a bear bat if you're in an area which prohibits weapons. In a group you are best off with a combination of spray and bear/shotguns, along with the ability to stay calm.).

Another reason why the spray works is that the bear most likely responds to it as he would a skunk, 'Sure, I may win the fight but I may lose substantial food or be attacked in the coming months.' Flares also work, and there is a company selling 'bear flares' now.

A smudge pot with punky wood and tinder fungus will essentially act like a long-burning flare or spray. Could be very useful in berry country.
 
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In the days before bear sprays

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Yes! Grandpa loved his Model 8. .30 Savage? Something better than 30-30 but not as strong as .30-06.
 
Lots of factors to think about. Stress is definitely one of them. Wouldn't have thought it possible, but I've watched people under stress miss a body sized target at 6 feet. The gun guys are always going to think gun. I think when it comes to guns and high stress environments, I can think of only a few people I'd be willing to walk with if they were armed, and a lot more who'd I'd be more worried about than the bears.
 
I'm not buying the hunters' stories. They lie worse than fishermen.
For bear spray to be effective you have to get them in the mucous membranes, real close. If the bear was charging and you miss, you aren't likely to get off a shot. If the bear was false charging they could have backed away because the reason was localized, protecting a carcass, two cubs. They probably didn't have to kill the bears.
But having seen my share of bear, it takes a cool customer to not shoot an angry Grizzly that looks like it might attack you. Actually, it take a cool customer to not run or need new underwear.
Codger hates animals and I hate people so we differ on shooting bears, lions and people who vote Democrat. Well, we differ on two out of three, anyway ;)
 
mtwarden said:
...I can tell you that a charging grizzly doesn't make for an easy target and if you do happen to hit your mark there is certainly no guarantee that you'll stop that charging bear- a 30' wall of oleocapsicum is easier and more efficient in my experience...
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Nicely said.

I remember reading an Elmer Kieth book wherein he told a tale--completely true :o--of an Idaho guide/packer who went back to collect a downed game animal. Sure enough the grizzlies have shown up. Not just one, but five, two adults and three youngsters. The packer was armed with a .45 Colt SAA, properly loaded with 5 rounds to keep the chamber under the hammer empty. When the two adults charge him, he drops each with one (1) shot to the head, and then chases of the youngsters with the last 3 shots.

They don't make 'em like they used to.
 
Rotte said:
When the two adults charge him, he drops each with one (1) shot to the head, and then chases of the youngsters with the last 3 shots.

They don't make 'em like they used to.
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Tall tales, you mean, right? ;)

At least he used a gun instead of his bare hands. My hero.
 
Best one I ever heard of was the stick defense. This is from an old native guy who lived off the land. Try at your own risk.

All you do is get a stick that's about as thick as your thumb and as long as you're tall. If you run into a bear you put your back against a tree with the stick held in front of you. When the bear gets close tap it in the nose with the stick. He'll bump it away and back up. Just keep tapping the bear on the nose till it loose interest and moves on.

Now I can see some problems with this; but I can also see some sense in staying calm and holding your ground.
 
mtwarden said:
obviously every situation is going to be different, no two the same; but with firearm encounters with a grizzly roughly half the people were injured, with bear spray that number is just a couple of percent

I'm a firearms instructor and I can tell you that a charging grizzly doesn't make for an easy target and if you do happen to hit your mark there is certainly no guarantee that you'll stop that charging bear- a 30' wall of oleocapsicum is easier and more efficient in my experience

I'd certainly rather have a firearm in an encounter than nothing, but would rather have bear spray if given the choice- if you're extra cautious- carry both, be proficient with both
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Agreed, good marksmanship is difficult under any life and death (perceived or not) situation.
 
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