well this is my dilemma is how fast to flip.I have had sand and pocket lint gum up ikbs and contained bearing from pocket cary.cantained easy to clean out but ikbs not as easy.but I have new knives with washers that flip just as fast pluss a couple of older not that old flippers that flip fast with no bearings .they dont get clogged with sand,lint or gunk.what do you guys think is the .010 faster opening worth the possibility of sticky bearings to the slower but still flippable washer method ?.im talking folder eith no bearings wear there is no wrist movement to open to bearings system s?
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bearings or no bearings+
- Thread starter endgamer
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I've heard some people say that the Shirogorov's with washers flip the best/smoothest out of all the options, single row bearings, multi row bearings, etc. I don't know first hand, just stating what I've heard.
I have a couple flippers with washers that are so smooth the blade falls into the handle under its own weight, just like bearings. It all comes down to the overall design. A well designed washer-flipper will flip well, and a well designed bearing-flipper will flip well too.
I have a couple flippers with washers that are so smooth the blade falls into the handle under its own weight, just like bearings. It all comes down to the overall design. A well designed washer-flipper will flip well, and a well designed bearing-flipper will flip well too.
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In my opinion, speed doesn't have anything to do with the quality of a flipper, and I don't really understand why it's such a huge factor for some people. If you want the fastest opening possible, buy a fixed blade or an auto.
The detent is the deciding factor in how fast a blade opens up, anyhow, and how much momentum you can build up before releasing it. After that point, assuming it can be flipped open/into locking position, the difference in speed is inconsequential -- it requires a certain amount of speed to propel a piece of steel (A blade, in this case.) 175ish degrees around a pivot (Once the detent has been released.) and overcome the tension from the lockbar/engage the locked position, without stopping. The only difference between a "fast" flipper and a "slow" flipper is the sound it makes when it hits the thumbstuds or stop pin, and a faster flipper is more likely to wear (Loosening screws, etc.). Both the slow flipper and the fast flipper will seem to open instantly.
The detent is the deciding factor in how fast a blade opens up, anyhow, and how much momentum you can build up before releasing it. After that point, assuming it can be flipped open/into locking position, the difference in speed is inconsequential -- it requires a certain amount of speed to propel a piece of steel (A blade, in this case.) 175ish degrees around a pivot (Once the detent has been released.) and overcome the tension from the lockbar/engage the locked position, without stopping. The only difference between a "fast" flipper and a "slow" flipper is the sound it makes when it hits the thumbstuds or stop pin, and a faster flipper is more likely to wear (Loosening screws, etc.). Both the slow flipper and the fast flipper will seem to open instantly.
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That's been my experience as well. A well designed knife with a standard pivot can be every bit as fast and smooth as a bearing pivot. And how much a knife costs isn't necessarily a determiner of which pivot type is better. In fact, one of the smoothest knives I own is a $30 Browning Ice Storm (Mcusta OEM) with a standard pivot. In the final analysis, it's the engineering that counts.
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its plain and simple. Washers take a lot longer to wear down. IKBS, custom bearings, theyre gonna flip as fast as washers or even faster at first. But over time the smoothness wears down. Washers will give you an extremely fast flip that stays smooth much longer than bearings.
Old tried and true is typically your best option if you ask me.
Old tried and true is typically your best option if you ask me.
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I don't understand this, though. Washers are either some type of plastic or bronze, while the bearings are, functionally, all steel.
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- I don't have any flippers with washers that are smoother than the ones I have with bearings.
Bearings to me are still pretty much a novelty as opposed to the long-term reliability of washers, be they P/B, Nylatron or Teflon.
Don't get me wrong, there are some great ones and a bearing flipper is fun to open...but more susceptible to gunking. It's also going to need maintenance at some point, IMO much sooner than a washer pivot. Then there's the presence of small moving parts. :grumpy: It's why I wouldn't buy a bearing knife for bush/survival use.
I do have washer pivots on higher-end folders that open every bit as well as my bearing pivots. I prefer to run my pivots dry and rarely lube them--only if they show need.
Don't get me wrong, there are some great ones and a bearing flipper is fun to open...but more susceptible to gunking. It's also going to need maintenance at some point, IMO much sooner than a washer pivot. Then there's the presence of small moving parts. :grumpy: It's why I wouldn't buy a bearing knife for bush/survival use.
I do have washer pivots on higher-end folders that open every bit as well as my bearing pivots. I prefer to run my pivots dry and rarely lube them--only if they show need.
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I have several ZT's with bearings but my 0550 is smoother than any of them and requires less maintenance.
There are great examples of both, but given the option I'll take washers every time. If the tolerances are kept high they are just as smooth/fast and they are less likely to get crap in them, not to mention less moving parts. I just haven't see anything bearings can do that washers can't.
I will say that I think bearings cover up a wider range of tolerances. If you want really smooth with washers the tolerances/handle gaps have to be near perfect, bearings are much more forgiving of that. Bearings are also more forgiving of pivot tightness, you can really crank some of the bearing pivot bolts down and they still run pretty darn smooth, washers are typically much more picky about the pivot tightness. Some bearing knives also use very small dia. and thin pivots and remove a lot of metal from the handle/blade to accommodate the bearings.
Bearings are a solution looking for a problem, unless that problem is poor tolerances and pivots that won't stay set.
I will say that I think bearings cover up a wider range of tolerances. If you want really smooth with washers the tolerances/handle gaps have to be near perfect, bearings are much more forgiving of that. Bearings are also more forgiving of pivot tightness, you can really crank some of the bearing pivot bolts down and they still run pretty darn smooth, washers are typically much more picky about the pivot tightness. Some bearing knives also use very small dia. and thin pivots and remove a lot of metal from the handle/blade to accommodate the bearings.
Bearings are a solution looking for a problem, unless that problem is poor tolerances and pivots that won't stay set.
I agree completely.
I have no interest in bearings. I use my knives outside quite a bit and don't trust bearings to not get silica (or whatever) in places it should not be. I put the effort into wearing in all of my knives' pivots and the Nylatron or Phosphor Bronze washers get very slick.
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I do. My ZT0200 is my smoothest and fastest flipper. Americans are impatient. They want their knife to flip like a rocket right out of the box. There can NOT be any break in period required. That won't fly.
Having said that, I see both sides of the argument.
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Then you are buying the wrong knives. None of my bearing pivoted Microtech flippers have had their pivots loosen, and they do not have Loctite on them.
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How do the bearings hold up to hard use? I imagine it's easier for the bearing mechanism to deform and fail than any washers.
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there is something smile inducing when you feel the speed and smoothness of bearings, kind of like playing with an auto, but at the end of the day, it's just fun factor and provides very little functionality IMO.
if you constantly clean your knives and do only light duty cutting- go for bearings- they ARE fun... but if you want to be able to put your knives through more than cutting tape and use them outdoors without fear of mechanical failure- stick to the washers.
I'm sure someone will come in and say how their bearing system handles hard use, and I've seen ADV videos of covering the butcher in sand and mud, but the more moving parts something has, the more things that can and usually do go wrong... I have no doubt a properly done bearing system can handle a lot- but I do not believe they will have the longevity compared to washer systems.
if you constantly clean your knives and do only light duty cutting- go for bearings- they ARE fun... but if you want to be able to put your knives through more than cutting tape and use them outdoors without fear of mechanical failure- stick to the washers.
I'm sure someone will come in and say how their bearing system handles hard use, and I've seen ADV videos of covering the butcher in sand and mud, but the more moving parts something has, the more things that can and usually do go wrong... I have no doubt a properly done bearing system can handle a lot- but I do not believe they will have the longevity compared to washer systems.
Charr
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Bearings have some issues with long-term use because they have a very small contact surface with the hardened steel of the blade and (presumably) the hardened steel they interface with against the frame of the knife (by this I mean most high-end Titanium knives have a steel racer for the bearings so they don't wear the Ti down). This very small contact surface makes the wear much greater over time, though you are right that the steel as a whole will resist the wear better. It is not enough to stop the from generally wearing down faster than Phospher Bronze washers though.
This is because washers (when done correctly) have a much larger contact surface against the steel, and the steel interfaces are usually smoothed out much more as well, greatly reducing the wear.
I have a Shirogorov on bearings, a 95T, and I love it. The reality though is that a bearing pivot is not as strong as a washer pivot. I would really like to get a Hati with M390 steel and washers for a second user honestly so that I can have a knife that will help distribute use against the 95T. Not an easy thing to find though, and honestly finding a great flipper on washers is hit or miss.
That, to me, is the absolute best advantage of bearings. It is MUCH easier to make a good flipper on bearings than it is a good flipper on washers. The tolerances, fitting, and tuning are all much easier to do on bearings, and that, at the end of the day, is the main reason most manufacturers and custom makers use them. Plus, the performance on washers is not as standard, and when people hear that something is on bearings, it seems much easier for the community to believe it is a very smooth or effective flipper.
I prefer washers, but a lot of my knives are on bearings because the makers and designs I like tend to have them. That's likely the fault of the community as a whole, but I also know that the knives won't fail me for years, and I have had nothing but good things to say about them.
Now, I will say that there are some materials that DO work better on bearings. For example, it is nearly impossible to have SM100 run smoothly on washers because the surface of Sm100 becomes rough when it is treated. Now, you can try to polish it and finish it smoothly...you can try. It is a long and rough process. Some makers do it, but most really just don't want to put the immense extra work into it and bring the price of their knife even higher.
That example is in the $1000+ range of knives at the least, but in some regards that makes it even more relevant to this discussion. I don't really have an issue with bearings on knives less than $400, or knives that I don't intend to use hard and frequently, but when you're spending $600+ on a knife, there really needs to be some serious discussion about longevity and tolerances in the pivot.
Alright...I'm done...for now.
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Nope.
I have an Allen Elishewitz M2 in washers with a super strong detent. Flips pretty well for being on washers. My zt0777 is on bearings with an average detent and it flips open noticeably faster.
Hell, my old Michael Vagnino Velox has almost no detent and still flipped faster as well.
Detent strength is just one aspect. Friction in the pivot as well as the location and geometry of the flipper also play HUGE roles.