bearings or no bearings+

I guess if you run your bearings dry, wear might be a problem. But, I bet you don't run your washered knives dry, do you.

If bearings wear so poorly, even when lubricated, then I guess you better replace all the wheel bearings in your cars with PB washers/sleeves, so they will last longer....
 
Scurvy092 said:
Nope.

I have an Allen Elishewitz M2 in washers with a super strong detent. Flips pretty well for being on washers. My zt0777 is on bearings with an average detent and it flips open noticeably faster.

Hell, my old Michael Vagnino Velox has almost no detent and still flipped faster as well.

Detent strength is just one aspect. Friction in the pivot as well as the location and geometry of the flipper also play HUGE roles.
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I do want to second this as well. Flippers are not easy to make function really well, but it is made much esier by bearings in general.

Takes a lot more precision, skill, and time to get the friction on washers down low enough to flip really well without making the washers tiny in diameter and losing most of the advantages of them in the first place, while it takes much less all around to do so with bearings. Keeps the knives much more consistant, and much cheaper.
Not to mention bearings can be easily standardized when they're caged. Washers require more work to truly standardize their function because most washers vary a tiny bit in thickness new, and will often have a little warp in them as well, both of which have to be corrected by the maker/manufacturer to a very fine tolerance in order to get a truly great flipper.

Also, bearings are easier to lubricate, and don't require that someone take the knife apart to maintain (in extreme cases, a sonic cleaning will get it cleaned without taking the knife down).

I just think at the end of the day the bearing craze comes down to consistancy and ease of production. I definitely do NOT like folders that open with the thumbstud on bearings though. The only exception so far has been my Diskin Fire, and really it is not a knife I use hard, though I certainly still use it. The main reason that it doesn't bother me though is because you can't take the knife apart, and I would never want to even if I could. The automatic mechanism in the Fire is very high-tension, and is not something that I would want to mess with at all. The fact that it has bearings and those make it much less likely that I will ever have to take it apart in my lifetime (have done a sonic cleaning on it once though because of sand) is not a detractor to me in that case.

Brigadier said:
I guess if you run your bearings dry, wear might be a problem. But, I bet you don't run your washered knives dry, do you.

If bearings wear so poorly, even when lubricated, then I guess you better replace all the wheel bearings in your cars with PB washers/sleeves, so they will last longer....
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:thumbup:
Let this be a lesson kids: lube always helps...

Seriously though, most people will never have an issue with most bearings, and if they do, a little dab of fine oil will help. It's much easier to oil bearings than washers like I've said too.
 
Charr said:
:thumbup:
Let this be a lesson kids: lube always helps...

Seriously though, most people will never have an issue with most bearings, and if they do, a little dab of fine oil will help. It's much easier to oil bearings than washers like I've said too.
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So which lube is best?
 
TrojanSteel said:
So which lube is best?
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...okay...just let me process this for a second...and I'm sorry, but the fact that your name is Trojansteel is messing with my head with this question...it's early, sorry...

But as a serious reply, Nano Oil works well from my experience. Basically the finest and thinest oil you can find that will still stay in place with use. The oil needs to be very fine to keep it from gunking up your bearings, but at the same time you sometimes have to find your own preferance for the action you like in your knives and the type of action the knife has by itself.
For example, a knife that flips well, but does not glide shut by itself, will need a finer oil to maintain that performance than a knife that has an action where the blade falls closed by itself with the detent ball still touching the blade. The knife that falls closed will be able to handle the slightly thicker oil (the difference in the oil will be slight, to be clear, but you kind of have to figure it out by working with it honestly), without losing any noticeable amount of performance.

Again, sorry. Have a conversation about lubricant with Trojansteel is hard on me this early. Not a bash on your name at all man, just my brain working off the rail a little ;)
 
I get that people like a snappy opening; I like it myself. But I fail to see the practicality of worrying about the time difference of opening between bearings and washers. Will your life depend on it? Are you participating in competition in how fast you can flip a knife open? In either case, I would think your fast twitch muscles are more of a determining factor on how fast you can get a knife open.

And for those worried about wear, for as much money as you bought the knife for, if ever you get to the point that bearing wear becomes an issue, I'm sure you can cough up the coin to get a replacement knife.
 
All technologies can work fine as long as the knife was properly designed for it....

However I trust washer to be (in theory) the most reliable since it is the simplest mechanism

But at the end it also depends on your use of your knife
I think I am not an heavy user... As a consequence I don't think one technology can make a difference for me ...
 
Brigadier said:
I find Abu Garcia Reel Oil works really well.
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Oh yeah, I fogot about that one! That is also an excellent oil. I have some of it in an applicator, but I never put a label on it so I completely forgot about what it was. One of the better oils for berings in my experience as well!
 
In practice it is not the bearings that wear but the steel and/or titanium the bearings contact. This has been seen in a few knives over extended period of time. The bearings, which are typically harder than the surrounding mateial, continue to wear a path in the bearing surface on the blade and/or handle. This can be delayed by purposely wearing a track in the steel/titanium, and not overtightening the pivot.


The problem arises not if wear occurs, but when and in which component. The strength of washers is that the softer washer material will likely be what wears down, easily replaced. With bearings, the blade or handle develops play and would most likely need to be machined and a shim of steel inserted then remachined to the correct thickness.

Also one of the strengths of the bearing system is the limited need of grease or oil, in fact most manufacturers recommend not using any as it will attract dirt and debris. Washers, in my exoerience, maintain a better feel because if the fit and limited gap between the bearing surface and the steel. (Smaller space, less chance of dirt or grit getting in).


I have built knives with both. My current preference, based on operating environment is washers. I work around sandy, dirty gritty and wet environments.
 
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Caveat to my above statement: most good custom makers use hardened steel inserts in the softer Titanium. Additionally, wear seems to stop, most of the time, after a certain amount occurs, and the wear path is well established. Not sure if this is due to work hardening or geometry ( kinda like lapping in together two pieces of material until they run together smoothly.).
 
im not worried about wear more then sand and gunk.these are the moving parts nightmare.yes the do clog and must be tacken apart to clean wear washers no.I just dont think a hard use folder should have bearings.the crunch of sand in them gives me chills like nails on a chalkboard.if you are near sand or mud using youre knife and drop it you most likly will have a problem.
 
endgamer said:
im not worried about wear more then sand and gunk.these are the moving parts nightmare.yes the do clog and must be tacken apart to clean wear washers no.I just dont think a hard use folder should have bearings.the crunch of sand in them gives me chills like nails on a chalkboard.if you are near sand or mud using youre knife and drop it you most likly will have a problem.
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[video=youtube;8ptNsbpBnig]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ptNsbpBnig[/video]

[video=youtube;oDJn3ozeLLo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDJn3ozeLLo[/video]
 
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I have had bearings in my hinderer and some ZT's. The washers in the Shirogorov Hati I just got is by far and away my favorite flipper....
 
My preference is a thumb opening washer knife.

Only thing a flipper is good for is to see how many times you can cycle during a commercial. :-)
 
So far there have been plenty of posts talking about what faults bearings could potentially have at some future point, theoretically. Some of it makes logical sense to me. But, has anyone reading this experienced any sort of bearing trouble or failure in a bearing flipper yet? This is not a sarcastic question. I know bearing knives are mostly new, but I'm curious if there's any real world bearing failure issues to learn from yet.
 
I only have one knife with a bearing pivot and that is my Alan Davis folder. I have yet to experience any issues with the bearings. I carry this knife just about every day, and when I do,it is subject to pocket lint, grease, oil dry, dirt, oil, saw dust, and anything else that is in the shop. I have yet to clean the knife since I received it a few weeks ago. I have also used it for a TON of food prep where the knife was covered in whatever I was cutting up, and still no issues to speak of.

Currently the knife is as smooth as it was from day one, if not smoother with use over time. It is also smoother than any of my other knives that utilize standard washers instead of bearings.

Now I am not saying that I think one is better than another but I do not think that you have to worry about the bearings giving you issues.
 
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