Beat the crap out of my Mule2

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I have an old hunting knife I am making a replacement stacked leather handle for and I had to cut about a 100 or so leather disks so I used the new Mule2 that I had just received. I had done similar tasks with my 52100 Mule and have been quite impressed but the M2 lasted even longer before it quit cutting. This test was particularly hard on the tip of the blade because of the way I was cutting on a plastic cutting board.

If we are looking for data comparing the 52100 and the m4 I can say that the M4 does have better edge holding. The 52100 was surprisingly good as well but there was a clear difference. Now when I resharpen them I will use the edge pro at the exact same angle and grit so I should get even better more precise data.

At first I was not to excited about a ZDP-189 Mule but now I am really looking forward to seeing how well Spydercos top of the line steel does against the 52100 and M4. The chinese steel is also going to be very interesting.

One thing I did not notice about the 52100 until the M4 got here is how much of a patina it had. There was quite a difference but it had happened so slow and over the whole knife I never really noticed.

I am interested if anyone else got different results?
Does anyone think the 52100 holds a better edge?
 
I've been using my M4 Mule at work for a few days now, and it holds up much better than the 52100 did. Heck, the M4 dulled but didn't chip doing some ceramic tile work, which is pretty impressive to me.
 
Is the 3V version still being considered?.
I was sure it came second on the list of what people want.
 
These_Nutz said:
Is the 3V version still being considered?.
I was sure it came second on the list of what people want.
Click to expand...

Thanx for the feedback. This is the type of sharing of experience that all of "we" steel junkies are interested to hear about.

I guess we're about at the place where we need to begin several more Mule Team pieces.

The plan is to release 3 or 4 per year, depending on you? We currently have on hand or are in-the-works:

CPM-S90V
ZDP-189
9Cr18Mo

I would like to get opnions and votes on the next 3 to begin working on.

CPM-3V seems to have interest. What else?

sal
 
Hey Sal how about the new liquid metal? I heard its easier to work with now, or talonite maybe stellite in a super small run.
 
Now that we have M-4, with S90V and ZDP-189 are in the works, CPM 15V is one of the only big ones left.
After that I'd like to see some of the more experimental steel types, like CPM Rex 76 (M48), CPM T15, and CPM MPL1 would be really cool (though highly unlikely).
 
Sal Glesser said:
The plan is to release 3 or 4 per year, depending on you? We currently have on hand or are in-the-works:

CPM-S90V
ZDP-189
9Cr18Mo

I would like to get opnions and votes on the next 3 to begin working on.

CPM-3V seems to have interest. What else?

sal
Click to expand...

What about good 'ol 1095? I would love to see it done by Spyderco.
 
Very much interested in the ZDP189 or the S90V in the next few. Been hearing about Cruwear as well but I'm interested in seeing how Spyderco does 3V so as to compare it to the 3V I'm running at 60 Rc. Knowing how you do steel it would be neat to compare a mule in 3V at 62/63 Rc like the M4. The cruwear has me intrigued.

Whatever it is, count me in thanks.
 
Cru ware is Crucibles take on the old standard, Vascowear, now out of production by the original company but most large steel companies have a version of it. Latrobe spec. steel co. calls theirs "lescowear"

It's a cold work tool steel ( non stainless) that is tougher than D2 or M2, wear resistance about like M2 or a bit better, much better than D2.

Vascowear had/has it's followers, but not a lot of knifemakers liked to work with it for various reasons, mostly citing it's ability to eat belts. With real belt eaters ( in comparison) like S90V, A11/10V being used now it seems tame, but for awhile a few decades ago it was considered wear resistant for knife steel.

I still like it and think it makes better knives than D2, and most stainless steels. Not quite as tough as A2, much less S7, or Busse's proprietary "Infi".

I believe I do like CPM M4 better for cutting/slicing class of knives. Joe

steel "graph" http://www.florida-knife.com/wear.html
http://www.florida-knife.com/material.html
Crucible's Cru ware page: http://www.crucibleservice.com/datash/dscruwearv5b.pdf

BTW, If I was to vote on the next steels I'd hasve to include 10V as a new reference standard on wear resistance. The steels that produce higher numbers are typically getting near carbide in expense, and brittlentss. T15, or Cru 121 Rex sound great on paper but aren't going to do much realisticly except get Sal fed up with the program

after 10V, then , of course cru ware. It would be my choice for the proverbial Spyderco monster tough folder. It's the best combo of toughness, wear resistance, and several other factors except corrosion resistance. Alternative is still YXR7, then something else from the "D" family. D5, or D7
 
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Interesting information Joe, and thanks for the steel data. I read the part about two furnaces are often used for heat treating of the Cru Wear and that kinda did it in for myself maybe dabbling in it or experimenting with it on my own.
 
Interesting information Joe, and thanks for the steel data. I read the part about two furnaces are often used for heat treating of the Cru Wear and that kinda did it in for myself maybe dabbling in it or experimenting with it on my own.
Click to expand...

Glad to share the info Jimbo. I've been a Vascowear user for a long time. I still rate it up with some of the best modern steels.There are a few knifemakers that still have stock and I'll run into a knife made of old vascowear at gunshows every now and then.

As far as working these steels, some of them get more difficult to heat treat than others. The highly alloyed steels can get complicated compared to the plain steels. The steels with tungsten and Moly typically also include higher temps than are available to a lot of makers, some need special quenches, triple tempers etc. All more time consuming, and costly for the knifemaker. Heck, for some of these steels professional heat treaters is the way to go for all except the best equipped knifemakers.

Getting these CPM M4 mules produced, and at such a low price really confirms Spyderco/Sal's philosophy isn't all about money & profit. These had to have been difficult & expensive to produce, and then sold at the lowest profit margins ( if any profit in fact is involved with these. I question that) A real step foreward, and a favor for us knife knut/steel junkys.

As far as home made knives you can't deny keeping with O-1, then the 10- series carbon steels are the best way to get started, and they certainly make great blades too.

Good luck Jimbo, Joe

Wayne Goddard's knife testing. The original standardized, at home test. http://users.ameritech.net/knives/edge.htm
Note how high it ( vascowear) ranks against this abrasive medium. It's different from the string test done by guys like Nozh/Vassili, which requires wear resistance and edge stability ( differing from strength from impacts.) ZDP does real well on those tests, as does 13C26, M2, etc., with good grain structures typically. Joe
 
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If and when 3V does get used i hope its around 59-60 rc.
I belive from what ive read it works best at that hardness plenty tough yet still keeps a razor edge.
What about cpm110v i think kershaw are bringing out a run in that steel should be intresting.
 
I have not yet put my 1st M4 through any heavy paces as I haven't had the opportunity to put scales on yet. But, I have tinkered a little with it and made some casual observations.

First, my first M4 didn't come as sharp to me as most of my other Spyderco's. But, that is OK because I intended to sharpen right away to get a feel for how it sharpens anyway. Also, I wanted a convex edge as that is just how I sharpen and this Mule will get plenty of use.
As I pretty much expected, it is reasonably hard and harder than most non-stainless steels to sharpen. It seems about as hard to sharpen as some S30V that I have worked with. But, I have had some 154cm that I felt was harder to sharpen (????)... hard to say exactly - somewhat of a "feel" guesstimate.

However, the M4 has taken a VERY nice edge and although I haven't used it hard yet, from the mild use I have put it through, it seems like it will be holding it's edge better than many (:MOST") other steels I have owned and used.

I missed out on the 52100 Mule by a couple of days and have been kicking myself since. But, now that I scored a M4 Mule I have no regrets. I have some other blades in 52100 and I like 52100. But, I am confident I will like this Mule even more. For me, I have always felt 52100 was a very good steel, but just a little more prone to rusting than I prefer.

In regards to the Mule design, I think I am really going to love this knife when I get some scales on it. The handle and blade shape are both awesome for a knife this size. The only issue I have ("had") is the sharp/steep thumb ramp/hump. It is ("was") just steeper than I prefer. So, when I sharpened it, I also ground the hump down to a more gently curving thumb ramp / hump. The modification feels MUCH improved to me / for my hands. I went from not liking the ramp, to liking it a lot. The mod still gives plenty of thumb resistance for down-force or detail work while feeling much more natural and versatile in my hand (IMO). Plus, I think it looks better (IMO).
I will now have to consider that modification for one of my Temperances.....

After having used this M4 in the kitchen a little, I noticed it seems to patina very similar to A2. I cut up some chicken tenders, cucumbers, tomatoes and peeled and sliced some grape skins to test sharpness.... yeah... it's sharp. :D

I personally don't really have any issue with a colored patina like A2. I much prefer a blueish gray patina over rust. From my experience with 52100, 52100 "readily" and quickly turns orange, brown and black (rust in my book).

A2 and this M4's patina are more of a color "shading" without pits and/or rust "growth". :barf:

A2 is a very good knife steel in my book. I am under the impression that M4 has better edge retention (?????).... (seems a little better so far ????) ... and reasonable toughness at almost as tough as A2.

So, far, M4 appears to have "GREAT" blade qualities in my book for a Mule sized knife. :thumbup:

I originally ordered one. But, I have been so impressed with the steel and design so far, I ordered another last week. Should be here today or tomorrow.

Here are some pics showing the patina and my "Hump"/ramp mod:

Spyderco-MuleM4patinaleft1b.jpg


Spyderco-MuleM4patinaright1a1.jpg


Spyderco-MuleM4patinaright1b1.jpg



... notice the "waiting" stabilized block of wood. ;) ..... I need to find a band-saw to borrow (?????) and order some pins.


Another minor modification I will likely make when I add the handle will be to slightly taper back the guard from the blade. It is a very minor thing, but it seems too canted towards the blade for my preferences. Putting it on a square piece of paper, it is actually very close to 90 degrees from the blade. But, I guess there is an optical illusion created by the angled plunge line that makes the guard seem canted towards the blade. It "feels" like it is just slightly in the cut path for close in work. I think I will grind it back just a tad to be more inline with the plunge line or even slightly more angled away from the blade. (?????) Maybe even a little shorter (?????)

Possibly like this (?????):

Spyderco-MuleM4ricassoguardmod.jpg



Anyway, Awesome knife and awesome steel so far.... :thumbup: ... Can't wait to get scales on it.


-------------------

In regards to "Next Steel":

I am interested in seeing Mules in (or at least consider the following possible considerations):

CPM-3V,
CPM-S90V (CPM 420-V),
CPM-9V,
CPM-10V,
ZDP-189,
Cru-Wear


CPM-15V sounds like it would be too hard to sharpen and work with (?????). 10V sounds like it is pushing most peoples (and makers) tolerable limits (????).

I don't know much about 9Cr18Mo (?????).

A couple of other steels that I don't know much about, but am curious about include RWL-34 and 20-CV (?????). :confused:

.
 
Sal
Thanks for asking and glad to hear more are on track. My vote is for steels that are not commonly encountered before ones that I can buy in other blades (albeit not in mule format). That moves ones like ZDP-189 down on my list. Beyond that, I have no strong preferences.

I'd like to try 3V. S90V would be good too. Some other interesting thoughts on the thread as well.

Sal Glesser said:
Thanx for the feedback. This is the type of sharing of experience that all of "we" steel junkies are interested to hear about.

I guess we're about at the place where we need to begin several more Mule Team pieces.

The plan is to release 3 or 4 per year, depending on you? We currently have on hand or are in-the-works:

CPM-S90V
ZDP-189
9Cr18Mo

I would like to get opnions and votes on the next 3 to begin working on.

CPM-3V seems to have interest. What else?

sal
Click to expand...
 
I know nothing about steel. I do however like my knives with S30V, M4, VG-10 and AUS-8.

I will leave the picking to people who know about steel. I don't know enough but I'm learning and so far I like the M4 Mule. :)

Great thread!
 
Sal Glesser said:
Thanx for the feedback. This is the type of sharing of experience that all of "we" steel junkies are interested to hear about.

I guess we're about at the place where we need to begin several more Mule Team pieces.

The plan is to release 3 or 4 per year, depending on you? We currently have on hand or are in-the-works:

CPM-S90V
ZDP-189
9Cr18Mo

I would like to get opnions and votes on the next 3 to begin working on.

CPM-3V seems to have interest. What else?

sal
Click to expand...

Great News ........... :thumbup:

Personally, I am in for whatever you make whenever you make them.... :thumbup:

No argument......... you make them and "Good Lord willing"....... I'll buy them........... :D ;)

I have some knives in CPM 3V and I am very impressed with it....... I think that would be a good one at some time in this project......... whenever you do it, I'll be in for it too........... :D
 
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