I guess everyone has noticed the new tan Beckers. I may live in the high desert, and I really like the look, but I don't know if the "cool" factor is worth an extra 10 bucks to me. Can anyone provide an *economic* reason why these knives, identical in every way other than color, should require this kind of bump in price, except they know that there are those who'll pay it?
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Becker "Desert Tan" knives
- Thread starter ichor
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averageguy
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Coolness usually plays into buying and pricing decisions. Sounds like you reaaly want a cool one and wish you could buy it for regular money. I feel your pain. Camillus does provide a credible explanation in their forum. Hey it's only $10.00 - still the best deal in the knife world for a quality fixed blade. Go ahead, get the cool one. In this case it's affordable.
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me: I have a BK-7 in the desert tan. If anything, it is different. I am bored with the standby tactical black so I got a desert motif. It is really quite impressive. I wish other people do innovative camoflauge patterns and colors. It certainly helped influence my buying decision.
Cougar Allen
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Sounds like you're trying to justify the investment to your wife (or possibly to your Inner Accountant). How about if you tell her (or him) the premium is only $10 now but in the future it'll be a rarity and therefore much more valuable to collectors than the plain garden-variety black? Of course you'll never sell it, but your grandchildren....
If she (or he) doesn't go for that rationale, c'mon back and I'll think up a way for you to sneak some money out of your joint bank account.
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You said it yourself - if you don't need a tan knife, get the black one. Basically they are the same knife in different colors. If you like the tan one and feel it's worth the extra $10, buy it! They are functionally the same if that's what you're asking.
Even with the $10 increase, they are still a damned good buy.
Best system in the world for determing the true value of something. The true value of anything is that point on the price chart where the "purchase price" line intersects the "selling price" line. Camillus will continue to supply these at the current price as long as there is demand. And they'll only sell at a price point that proves profitable. Best system in the world.
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Sorry, I just don't get it
Love BK&T and know Ethan Becker personally
But a tan blade coating seems unnecessary to me.
And kinda late in the game
Kinda one of those things you do 'cause you can...
Or 'cause someone convinced you there was a market for it.
Is the sheath tan, too? The knife's handle? Or are these black and just the blade tan (which is most often concealled by the sheath).
As noted in an earlier observation, the one thing you DON'T want in the desert is a polished blade due to the serious light reflection problems and the distances such reflections can be seen from. Hot Rod primer takes care of that problem, if nothing else.
For $10 extra I guess if you want it you got it.
Just don't see the advantage over Hot Rod primer or black oxide from a practical / applicable point of view.
GW
Love BK&T and know Ethan Becker personally
But a tan blade coating seems unnecessary to me.
And kinda late in the game
Kinda one of those things you do 'cause you can...
Or 'cause someone convinced you there was a market for it.
Is the sheath tan, too? The knife's handle? Or are these black and just the blade tan (which is most often concealled by the sheath).
As noted in an earlier observation, the one thing you DON'T want in the desert is a polished blade due to the serious light reflection problems and the distances such reflections can be seen from. Hot Rod primer takes care of that problem, if nothing else.
For $10 extra I guess if you want it you got it.
Just don't see the advantage over Hot Rod primer or black oxide from a practical / applicable point of view.
GW
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- Mar 11, 2002
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Tan blade, tan scales, tan/black sheath.
Very sharp looking knife (however I have the Black/Green version). I would imagine that the lower production run for blade treatment, tan scales and the smaller order for the tan sheaths would mean higher prices for BK&T resulting in higher sales cost.
Just my $.02.
Very sharp looking knife (however I have the Black/Green version). I would imagine that the lower production run for blade treatment, tan scales and the smaller order for the tan sheaths would mean higher prices for BK&T resulting in higher sales cost.
Just my $.02.
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thanks for the info
agree with your analysis although it's been my experience one coating color over the next, or one color cordura / kydex over the next, isn't really that expensive any longer.
but, one never knows these days. everyone wanting to capitalize on the war.
just saw a SIG 229, one of 2003 made, with "Operation Iraqi Freedom" engraved or etched on the slide.
whazz up with that???
beretta is probably tooling up a commemorative 92F, as well, even though the 92 sucks and it sucked even worse in the desert. a 500 round pistol according to experienced army armorers (before things start cracking or breaking or weakening). envied those dudes who still had .45 colts available to them...and captured .45s / 9mm (SIG/GLOCK/Browning) were popular, too.
ah well, whadda gonna do?
GW
agree with your analysis although it's been my experience one coating color over the next, or one color cordura / kydex over the next, isn't really that expensive any longer.
but, one never knows these days. everyone wanting to capitalize on the war.
just saw a SIG 229, one of 2003 made, with "Operation Iraqi Freedom" engraved or etched on the slide.
whazz up with that???
beretta is probably tooling up a commemorative 92F, as well, even though the 92 sucks and it sucked even worse in the desert. a 500 round pistol according to experienced army armorers (before things start cracking or breaking or weakening). envied those dudes who still had .45 colts available to them...and captured .45s / 9mm (SIG/GLOCK/Browning) were popular, too.
ah well, whadda gonna do?
GW
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Is the tan Arizona Tan; or New Mexico Tan; or Kuwaiti Tan; or Iraqi Tan; or Jordan Tan; or Coppertone Tan...
When the Army first came up with its desert camos, the infamous "chocolate chip" pattern, they poured lots of money and time into trying out different patterns...in a US desert.
When the final product got to the Gulf for Desert Storm it was soon discovered the US desert pattern wasn't anything like the Kuwaiti desert colors and patterns.
Oops! Back to the drawing board and the current pattern for both US Army and USMC (which is a very neat digital pattern).
Tan is tan. It is not necessarily camouflage, desert or otherwise. I painted one of my Kevlar helmets tan (flat) and it looked neat...but it stood out against the very specific Kuwaiti / Iraqi deserts browns and tans and blacks.
Which is why I stopped wearing it...or wore my nice black lightweight PRO helmet instead.
Ain't knockin' the BK&T product...just pointing out that because something is painted "tan" doesn't mean it's camo for the environment you might expect to wear it, or use it in.
GW
When the Army first came up with its desert camos, the infamous "chocolate chip" pattern, they poured lots of money and time into trying out different patterns...in a US desert.
When the final product got to the Gulf for Desert Storm it was soon discovered the US desert pattern wasn't anything like the Kuwaiti desert colors and patterns.
Oops! Back to the drawing board and the current pattern for both US Army and USMC (which is a very neat digital pattern).
Tan is tan. It is not necessarily camouflage, desert or otherwise. I painted one of my Kevlar helmets tan (flat) and it looked neat...but it stood out against the very specific Kuwaiti / Iraqi deserts browns and tans and blacks.
Which is why I stopped wearing it...or wore my nice black lightweight PRO helmet instead.
Ain't knockin' the BK&T product...just pointing out that because something is painted "tan" doesn't mean it's camo for the environment you might expect to wear it, or use it in.
GW
Gee whiz, thanks for the economics lesson. I've always found it difficult to fathom the profound principles of the free enterprise system. ;-)
But, that didn't answer my question, which was NOT: is the tan color worth the extra money. Nor was I, as some alluded to, trying to justify the extra 10 bucks to myself or a non-existant wife. My question was: Is there an economic reason for the bump in price other than the fact that they can get it and, because of the trendyness of so-called "desert" colors.
So far all I've heard, in the way of an increase in cost to the manufacturer, is alleged new set up costs for the variation in color. Personally I find it difficult to believe that a company the size of Camillus is going to be told, sorry, we can only produce this different color if you come up with another 10 bucks per unit.
There's no need for anyone to get defensive. I'm not saying the price is too high or in any way being critical. I like Becker and his company and feel that the BK&T line is one of, if not the, best value on the market. And obviously they can set there own prices without consulting me. Just asked a simple question, but still have no definitive answer . YMMV.
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Why are there diff color cars? why are houses diff color, they all do the same thing no matter what color...Because people want choices in what they buy. If you like black get black, if you like tan get tan, the price diff comes from having to setup to a diff color than the one you been doing, takes more time, the color might cost more for materials, anyone of these is reasonable why there is a ten buck diff. and hey its only ten bucks to get what you want the way I see it.
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me: The sheath is tan, too. I think regardless of it not totally matching the environment it was meant for, it is a nice motif and should blend into any BDUs that are along the lines of the same color. It is a gimmicky thing. I like it because I am so sick and tired of the same motif over and over. I like the variety and the knife manufacturers willing to challenge convention and the establishment by being innovative has got my vote. Next thing that will be interesting to see is camoflauge patterns with color. I would think it would be costly, though. We'll see.
Just got the new deset sand BK-7 and the grips are not slick like the desert sand BK-9, or the black BK-7 & 9. Don't know if they'll all come that way, or I just got lucky.
The difference in price of course varies with who you buy from, so the few extra dollars were worth not having to modify the grips.
The difference in price of course varies with who you buy from, so the few extra dollars were worth not having to modify the grips.
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Okay...
Having just spent 8 months in KU and Iraq...
And a month in Malaysia before that...
And 22 years in the field before that...to include American deserts, Alaska, Panama, and so on...
And having been in the knife industry for about a decade...
The bottom line is this from my "limited" experience -
They charge you extra $$ for only two reasons:
1. The finish any non-specific firm may be offering costs them X amount and they have to ensure a profit regardless. No biggie, that's business.
2. The finish same non-specific firm is offering doesn't cost any more than the other finish but is a marketing tool meant to take advantage of a popular theme or trend to make the buyer feel "special".
Field experience -
Said this for years in many mediums...
Black, tan, olive green, or hot rod primer gray it DOES NOT MATTER. The goal is to take the "shiny" off of SHINY in a high light reflective environment. The DESERT offers such an environment given there's NOTHING out there to block REFLECTION. This to include reflection off of vehicle and signal mirrors, exposed optical sights (I HATED it when I lost my front sight cover off my M4's Leupold CQT scope while in Baghdad
) and so on.
Flashlights, especially tactical lights, offer similiar problems. They can activate when YOU DON'T WANT THEM TO. I solved this potential problem by super gluing a blue lense cap / cover over my tac-light so if the light activated by chance or accident at least the beam would be somewhat subdued for the moment it took for me to deactiate the light.
Rex Applegate promoted a shiny blade over a subdued one for close in combatives. He believed seeing that momentary flash of steel could buy a critical half second of shock, fear, awe, and so on. However, I have maintained Applegate was talking specifically about a CQB knife and specifically about close quarters combat. Not about a knife that you used every day to cut tape, open boxes, or jimmy stuck shell casings in a highly reflective environment.
You want tan? Buy tan. You want black? Buy black. You want hot rod primer gray...buy a can of spray paint for $4.00 and do it yourself. The objective is to cut down reflection. It is not camoflage, and it is not "protective" of the blade's steel unless it is bonded to the steel and not merely painted or sprayed or coated over it.
90% of the time your knife is in its sheath or scabbard where the blade is obviously masked anyhow.
GW
PS: While editor of Fighting Knives magazine and in researching my books on bladeware, and in doing the field consultation for the 21st Century KA-BAR fighting knife for KA-BAR, I learned that any number of companies offer blade coatings simply because the competition does.
I've heard, from the horse's mouth, where firms simply dab on a coating and look for the least expensive such coating to "compete" with the guy down the block. "They wear down and off anyhow with use" is the common justification for a cheap but sexy cosmetic finish. One company discovered their current finish by ACCIDENT and went with it. Another company saw the finish and offered to purchase rights to it 'cause it was so "different" and "attractive".
The original company chuckled and said "no"...quietly laughing in the knowledge they'd stumbled onto their new finish and understood it was a fairly common such coating that took on the appearance it does due to something other than the properties of the coating itself.
Ah, ya gotta love it.
Cans of tan spray paint are normally the same price as cans of hot rod primer...plus you get to enjoy the sense of accomplishment that comes with doing your own work .
Having just spent 8 months in KU and Iraq...
And a month in Malaysia before that...
And 22 years in the field before that...to include American deserts, Alaska, Panama, and so on...
And having been in the knife industry for about a decade...
The bottom line is this from my "limited" experience -
They charge you extra $$ for only two reasons:
1. The finish any non-specific firm may be offering costs them X amount and they have to ensure a profit regardless. No biggie, that's business.
2. The finish same non-specific firm is offering doesn't cost any more than the other finish but is a marketing tool meant to take advantage of a popular theme or trend to make the buyer feel "special".
Field experience -
Said this for years in many mediums...
Black, tan, olive green, or hot rod primer gray it DOES NOT MATTER. The goal is to take the "shiny" off of SHINY in a high light reflective environment. The DESERT offers such an environment given there's NOTHING out there to block REFLECTION. This to include reflection off of vehicle and signal mirrors, exposed optical sights (I HATED it when I lost my front sight cover off my M4's Leupold CQT scope while in Baghdad
) and so on.Flashlights, especially tactical lights, offer similiar problems. They can activate when YOU DON'T WANT THEM TO. I solved this potential problem by super gluing a blue lense cap / cover over my tac-light so if the light activated by chance or accident at least the beam would be somewhat subdued for the moment it took for me to deactiate the light.
Rex Applegate promoted a shiny blade over a subdued one for close in combatives. He believed seeing that momentary flash of steel could buy a critical half second of shock, fear, awe, and so on. However, I have maintained Applegate was talking specifically about a CQB knife and specifically about close quarters combat. Not about a knife that you used every day to cut tape, open boxes, or jimmy stuck shell casings in a highly reflective environment.
You want tan? Buy tan. You want black? Buy black. You want hot rod primer gray...buy a can of spray paint for $4.00 and do it yourself. The objective is to cut down reflection. It is not camoflage, and it is not "protective" of the blade's steel unless it is bonded to the steel and not merely painted or sprayed or coated over it.
90% of the time your knife is in its sheath or scabbard where the blade is obviously masked anyhow.
GW
PS: While editor of Fighting Knives magazine and in researching my books on bladeware, and in doing the field consultation for the 21st Century KA-BAR fighting knife for KA-BAR, I learned that any number of companies offer blade coatings simply because the competition does.
I've heard, from the horse's mouth, where firms simply dab on a coating and look for the least expensive such coating to "compete" with the guy down the block. "They wear down and off anyhow with use" is the common justification for a cheap but sexy cosmetic finish. One company discovered their current finish by ACCIDENT and went with it. Another company saw the finish and offered to purchase rights to it 'cause it was so "different" and "attractive".
The original company chuckled and said "no"...quietly laughing in the knowledge they'd stumbled onto their new finish and understood it was a fairly common such coating that took on the appearance it does due to something other than the properties of the coating itself.
Ah, ya gotta love it.
Cans of tan spray paint are normally the same price as cans of hot rod primer...plus you get to enjoy the sense of accomplishment that comes with doing your own work
.I would get the tan version for several reasons:
It's probably just a temporary thing and will not be around for very long--and so it might become a collector item in the future.
Why be just like everyone else? The world is full of black knives, so it's refreshing to see something different.
I saw the tan Becker at a local knife shop and I plan to buy it next week.
As for the difference in cost: well, I suppose it does cost a little more to create new ads for magazines, update websites, get the new models in to the stores, purchase different dyes for the sheathes, ect...
$10.00 extra bucks sounds resonable--I'll just drink a few beers less for a week.
It's probably just a temporary thing and will not be around for very long--and so it might become a collector item in the future.
Why be just like everyone else? The world is full of black knives, so it's refreshing to see something different.
I saw the tan Becker at a local knife shop and I plan to buy it next week.
As for the difference in cost: well, I suppose it does cost a little more to create new ads for magazines, update websites, get the new models in to the stores, purchase different dyes for the sheathes, ect...
$10.00 extra bucks sounds resonable--I'll just drink a few beers less for a week.