Becker Extreme BK-77

And make sure the insurance premiums on the wife's policy are paid on time before you take her camping / hiking .
 
Guyon said:
I think he's onto something. Forget the gun. Just practice your wind sprints, and always hike with a crowd. :D
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"I think someone in my hiking party begins every Montana trip with that joke. I don't need to outrun a bear, I just need to outrun you:D "
 
Since you failed to mention the 357 mag in your pack, I wonder what gives you the most comfort in the middle of the night? I really like my BK-7 for a "Camp knife," but you can bet the farm, that I'll be grabbing the 357.
 
Gutshot said:
But if you are concerned about protecting yourself from grizzly bear and cougar, a knife just won't cut it (no pun intended).
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Although the chances of a mountain lion attack are slim and a high powered gun would be ideal during a attack, this guy may have been in much better shape with a fixed blade knife. These accounts are actually pretty interesting:

"1998

28 April. At 2:00 p.m. experienced hiker and a Lakewood State Park ranger, Andy Peterson, 24, from Littleton, Colorado, was attacked in Roxborough State Park, Colorado, while hiking alone on the Carpenter Peak Trail 2 to 3 miles west of the visitor center. Decending the trail, the 5' 6", 130 pound hiker came upon a lion which may have been young, approximately 80 pounds, and female. It was chewing on a stick. At first he couldn't believe his luck. Then fear overtook his excitement. Peterson's legs shook as he eased quietly backwards, up the trail. He reached for the Swiss Army knife he always carried in his fanny pack and glanced at it. He was doubtful it's two inch blade was much of a defense. In the brief time he looked away from the lion to size up his knife, the lion had begun slowly advancing, now with his eyes on Peterson's. (Click photo above to enlarge)

He made himself look as big and menacing as possible. He shouted. He waved his arms and jumped up and down. Instead of retreating as he expected, instantly, the cat was directly in front of him, seeming to size him up before attacking. It stared at him, its ears up and alert. So Peterson backed up. The lion advanced. Peterson kept shouting. The cat bared its teeth, squinted, and flared its nostrils. Then the ears flattened. The lion let out a growl and lept, paws extended. It slammed into his chest, causing them to tumble down the trail, ending up side by side in a rolled up mass of fur, claws, and blood. His blood! Peterson jumped up, and the lion missed him on a second leap. He careened down the path this time, trying to fend off the cat with the shirt that had been tied around his waist.

When the lion suddenly stopped, Peterson grasped his pack and swung it at the lion, missing it repeatedly as the lion easily dodged his swing. Once again he started backpedaling down the trail with the cougar staying inches away, evidently toying with him. When his escape path dropped down steeply through a series of boulder steps, he hurtled down, skipping over the boulders. The cougar launched into the air and tore into him just as he hit the ground. For a second time they rolled together, down the trail. When they landed, Peterson was on his knees, over the lion that was on its back. His head was in the lion's mouth, a large tooth an inch in front of his left eye. The lion's teeth were sunk into the top of his skull. Its jaws loosened slightly, then bit down a second time, searching for a firmer hold. Blood cascaded down over his face.

With his knife still in hand, he slashed at different angles, aiming at the lion's throat, but because of the lion's thick fur and skin, he failed to draw blood. Raising the knife high over the animal's head, he plunged it into the back of its neck. Once. Twice. Nothing, not even a whimper as the lion clawed his face. With an effort he was able to see that the knife's blade had closed on his index finger, cutting halfway through. Reaching over the cat's head with his other arm, he managed to pry the knife open, just as he also realized that his right hand was touching the cougar's right eye. With all the desperate force he could muster, he plunged his thumb into its eye, simultaneously sinking the knife into the cat's skull with his left hand. The lion shrieked, releasing its hold on his head and pulling it's claws from his neck. The lion jumped backwards.

Peterson hurled a rock the size of a volley ball at the lion's side. Then, backing down the trail, out of sight from the lion, he turned and ran. Peterson was losing blood fast and was still almost three miles from the trailhead. Halfway down, where the trail went through a thick stand of ponderosa pine trees, in full stride, he glanced over his shoulder and believed he saw the lion eyeing him from a distant tree! Feeling futile and panicked, he managed to call on his legs to drive him even faster, and again he glanced over his shoulder. This time he saw a "divine vision" instead of the lion, and felt saved. He continued racing down the trail where he encountered a group of hikers. After 30 minutes with a mountain lion and 2½ miles at a dead run, his body shut down. When he heard the thunder of an approaching rescue chopper he knew his nightmare was over.

Jim Jones, an area wildlife manager for the Colorado Division of Wildlife, was quoted in the newspaper as saying that the lion probably wasn't driven away by the hiker's action, but instead "just lost interest", since lions are used to receiving wounds from their prey. Later he was quoted in a magazine as saying that mountain lions have been known to retreat from prey that fight back.

The lion was baited and hunted but was never found. The residents in the very nearby and "upscale" Roxborough Park suburb outspokenly rooted for the lion, as they didn't want even an attacking lion shot. About 9 months later in Lakewood, Colorado, (an established Denver suburb) about 15 miles away from where Peterson was attacked, artist Joe Beckner spotted a mountain lion in the ponderosa pine beside his barbecue grill. He called 911 only after he carefully studied the lion since he wanted to capture it in a watercolor later. It was missing it's right eye. The police tranquilized and moved it.

Hospitalized in fair and stable condition, Peterson received several dozen stitches to his face, neck, upper chest, both shoulders, and right leg. He set a record at Swedish Hospital in Englewood, Colorado by requiring 70 staples to close his head wounds. The encounter with the mountain lion has divided Peterson's life into pre- and post-attack. He used to be an avid solo hiker; now, he rarely hikes, and never alone. Even when walking to his car at night from a shopping mall or supermarket, Peterson looks over his shoulder. He has nightmares. But because of his "vision" while losing blood and running toward safety, Peterson also perceives a divine purpose behind his attack. Not formerly a practicing Christian, he was babtized 2.5 months after the attack. The near-death experience prompted him to reconcile with his father and led him to change careers. Peterson had been studying for a degree in park management; now he is an inspirational speaker - bringing the story of his attack and his vision to churches and youth groups. On May 11, 1999, he appeared on Oprah. Sources: (Denver Post; 05/01/98, B-01; 05/06/98, B-03) (Andy Peterson's Own Online Account; 1998) (The Boston Globe Magazine; Wild in the suburbs; By David Baron; 08/22/1999) (New Man Magazine Online; Attacked!; by By Rhonda Sholar; date unknown) (Douglas County News-Press; Man survives attack by mountain lion; By Mike Colias; 05/06/1998)" [1]

[1] http://cougarinfo.com/attacks2.htm
 
I'll keep one knife in each hand, and a spare in sheath. :D

Seriously, my BK-7SG (serrated) came in today. It's a variant I'd been hunting. Took a quick pic of all three variations. The leftmost knife is my wife's new BK-7 with some micarta scales added.

7s.jpg
 
Guyon, you BK HO!

Welcome Hiker Ron! Bears and Cougars concern me too... fortunately, (or unfortunately...) I don't get much of a chance to hike where they are, and would likely have family, as in small kids, with. I would consider a shorty shotgun loaded with slugs +/- buckshot as essential kit. If not "allowed" to carry that, I'd go with a higher caliber revolver or 10mm hot loaded Glock. The .460 is a versatile gun, can load .45LC, .454 cassul (sp?) or hotter .460. I may not have those facts straight, but someone gun-nuttier can chime in. The .357mag would work for cougar and 2-legged varmints quite well. I would keep the handguns holstered and accessible, but maybe not quite out in the open for sheeple eyes.

As for knife selection, a SAK with the saw would be good for camp chores. I would also like a larger camp knife fixed blade for light chopping and batoning.
 
JGarth,
Yeah, I'll just sleep with my boots on in the tent and use the Becker for cutting the tent and running! LOL

Dreamer,
Good point! The answer is yes and no. It really depends on moonlight. If it's really dark I think the pepper spray is still the best as reports indicate it works 90% of the time on a grizz, but if reaching for the gun you have to also usually reach for your flashlight (and/or headlamp) since often you can't even see your hand in front of your face because it's so dark in the forest. Bear spray will shoot out 30 plus feet and fog the whole area. With the gun you have to light things up to see first usually (depending on moonlight) and then there's the shock and adrenaline under duress - can you hit target accurately during chaos. Don't want to shoot wife - LOL. So I usually think pepper spray first, then immediately grab Wolf Eyes Flashlight and grab gun with other hand if need be. Last resort would be knife, because if a bear is attacking someone in your tent at night - it is a predatorial attack.

Jutt;
Thanks for sharing that! Exactly why a good fixed blade could be useful. I actually do worry more about cougars than I do bears as I mentioned earlier. They tend to attack from behind or the side and a knife might just be one's hope.

To everyone;
So how does a larger fixed blade in s30v hold up? It seems everyone has a different view on steels in the forums here. Guyon suggested using the carbon blade (that would be my BK-71) instead of my s30v BK-77. People talk a lot about chopping, but I've never had to chop backpacking as there are a lot of various sizes of dead wood for a fire and I usually use my saw on my SAK for cutting branches, etc... I don't intend to chop concrete or bolts with my Extreme, but it sure has an edge that should hold up with normal knife cutting, slicing, and piercing chores, and self defense shouldn't it? It might hold up better in the rainy weather right? To be honest, I always have liked the steel in even my Buck Duke (440c ?) Even Buck's 420HC seems like it holds an edge for me in my Buck Stockman pocket knife. When car camping, I just use axes and hatchets for things that knives are not as good for - splitting tamarack and birch/cherry wood for a campfire.

Thanks for the ongoing discussion,
Hiker Ron
 
Hello Hiker Ron,

We all have our habits, likes and dislikes regarding camp activities. I don't think there is any right way to do things, although there are probably wrong things to do in terms of activities that might be unsafe yet practiced by surprisingly large numbers of people.

I also do the odd backpacking and appreciate the need to go light. Fortunately, around my parts we only have black bears and wolves which usually leave you alone or seem to be intimidated much more easily. Never had a deer false charge before, but I've been wary of moose particularly during the rut.

Chopping - there is a lot of divergence on the small axe versus big chopper. A knife has more diversity of possible uses while the axe will usually eat wood more efficiently than the knife when strictly compared on chopping. When it comes to fire wood, it seems to me that a chopper (axe or knife) will let you collect bigger pieces of wood than your sak saw would. The bigger pieces can be split by batoning into quarters and smaller. This lets you get at the inside wood that makes much better fuzz sticks than you would get by whittling a smaller branch with your sack (my thinking anyway). When conditions are damp sometimes you can find better burning wood by going larger diameter. Also, I find that you can get a slower burning fire that can be better managed in terms of size when relying on larger pieces.

You can also use your big knife for a bit of digging. You would probably want to use the pommel for digging for example your fire pit. If you are worried about the knife for digging purposes then you could make a digging stick by sharpening the stick and digging with that. You will probably find the bigger knife much more efficient at making the digging stick than your thin little SAK. Any situation where you need to make your own tent stakes will also go pretty quick with a larger knife compared to a small one. These are just a few ideas. Myself, when I have a nice fixed knife strapped to my belt I tend to use it almost exclusively for knife chores and the SAK stays in my pack for its can opener, bottle opener, scissors ect.

Regarding steels, some people prefer a large chopper to be of high carbon like 1095. Basically chopping is hard on the knife, so even with a really hard steel you will likely get dulling of the blade. High carbon blades are quite easy to sharpen in the field so dulling is not much of an issue if you bring a small stone or crock sticks along. Also the carbon blades are very tough meaning they tend to roll on impact and the edge can be brought back easily enough by steeling.

The fear is that some of the stronger steels, when used in chopping knives, are that even though they tend to excel in edge retention, they are more prone to chipping during chopping when hitting knots in the wood. Chips are not easy to handle in the field and you will likely have live with your compromised edge until you get back home and can grind them out. Of course, if you avoid chopping into objects like knots you are probably okay. I haven't personally used S30V so I do not know its qualities by experience.
 
kgd said:
Hello Hiker Ron,

We all have our habits, likes and dislikes regarding camp activities. I don't think there is any right way to do things, although there are probably wrong things to do in terms of activities that might be unsafe yet practiced by surprisingly large numbers of people.

I also do the odd backpacking and appreciate the need to go light. Fortunately, around my parts we only have black bears and wolves which usually leave you alone or seem to be intimidated much more easily. Never had a deer false charge before, but I've been wary of moose particularly during the rut.

Chopping - there is a lot of divergence on the small axe versus big chopper. A knife has more diversity of possible uses while the axe will usually eat wood more efficiently than the knife when strictly compared on chopping. When it comes to fire wood, it seems to me that a chopper (axe or knife) will let you collect bigger pieces of wood than your sak saw would. The bigger pieces can be split by batoning into quarters and smaller. This lets you get at the inside wood that makes much better fuzz sticks than you would get by whittling a smaller branch with your sack (my thinking anyway). When conditions are damp sometimes you can find better burning wood by going larger diameter. Also, I find that you can get a slower burning fire that can be better managed in terms of size when relying on larger pieces.

You can also use your big knife for a bit of digging. You would probably want to use the pommel for digging for example your fire pit. If you are worried about the knife for digging purposes then you could make a digging stick by sharpening the stick and digging with that. You will probably find the bigger knife much more efficient at making the digging stick than your thin little SAK. Any situation where you need to make your own tent stakes will also go pretty quick with a larger knife compared to a small one. These are just a few ideas. Myself, when I have a nice fixed knife strapped to my belt I tend to use it almost exclusively for knife chores and the SAK stays in my pack for its can opener, bottle opener, scissors ect.

Regarding steels, some people prefer a large chopper to be of high carbon like 1095. Basically chopping is hard on the knife, so even with a really hard steel you will likely get dulling of the blade. High carbon blades are quite easy to sharpen in the field so dulling is not much of an issue if you bring a small stone or crock sticks along. Also the carbon blades are very tough meaning they tend to roll on impact and the edge can be brought back easily enough by steeling.

The fear is that some of the stronger steels, when used in chopping knives, are that even though they tend to excel in edge retention, they are more prone to chipping during chopping when hitting knots in the wood. Chips are not easy to handle in the field and you will likely have live with your compromised edge until you get back home and can grind them out. Of course, if you avoid chopping into objects like knots you are probably okay. I haven't personally used S30V so I do not know its qualities by experience.
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Hiker Ron,

kgd did a nice job here of summing up my thinking. S-30V is a great steel that takes one mean edge and slices like the dickens. I have S-30V in some Spydercos, Bucks, and the Becker BK-77. Great steel for general cutting chores. Nice corrosion resistance.

That said, my daypack has two knives in carbon steel. A smaller blade for utility work. A larger blade for chopping. Right now, as I type, those two are a Swamp Rat HRLM and a Becker BK-9. However, I'm a bit of a chopper nut, and I might rotate out the Becker for a Scrap Yard (Dog Father), a Swamp Rat (Rat Mastiff or Battle Rat), a Busse (Basic 9, Fusion Steel Heart, Battle Mistress in a few variations), a Ranger (RD-9), or another Becker (BK-1).

Some folks, however, prefer the one knife in a 7" to 8" configuration. Some of the top contenders here are knives like the Becker BK-7, the Swamp Rat Ratweiler, the Busse Steel Heart , the Ranger RD-7, etc.

Other folks prefer a small knife and a hatchet or axe. YMMV. You just have to figure out what works for you. Sounds like you know what you like with the 7" blade and the SAK saw.

My advice? Use that BK-77 like crazy and see what it'll do for you. Report back and let us know what you think, here or at the Camillus forum. (There is currently a dedicated Camillus forum here at Bladeforums, but it's a little uncertain what will become of that fan-base since the demise of Camillus and the possibility of closing that forum.)
 
Thanks for the advice kgd and Guyon. It's nice to learn new perspectives on how and what one can and/or should use a big fixed blade knife for. Great info kgd. That's kind of why I basically bought two of the same blade style Becker's. One with s30v steel and the Desert tan one in carbon steel. I will be going regular car camping before any of our extended backpacking trips coming up. I'll do some chopping and get familiar with each knife and how they seem to compare. I'm just a bit more leery of putting the Extreme through really rough use probably because of how much more expensive the Extreme was. I only have one of those triple Arkansas Stones for sharpening (coarse, medium, and fine). Is there other sharpeners that I should get and use specifically for these two knives or are these Arkansa stones ok to use? That's another thing I need to do - is learn a bit more on angles and sharpening skills and techniques. Any good books on the art of sharpening that anyone could recommend?

Regards,
Hiker Ron
 
Troop said:
Just get a 12-guage pump that'll shoot the heaviest slugs you can find. Get one with a "barely legal" barrel, .....
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Exactly what I was going to suggest. I used to hike in black bear country often and they are a lot smaller and less aggressive than the browns. Also had a fair amount of cougers too so I carried a snub .41mag or a 10MM glock with me most times. For camping or extended trips the shotty was always with me.
 
Thanks Esav for the helpful links! Very helpful.

Yes, next year I'll be looking to perhaps upgrade to a 44 mag or 454. This year the Becker's were my addition to our sport. I've always wanted a quality fixed blade or two. Now I have them.

I have that Winchester short barrel home defense shotgun that we take when car camping in the mountains - loading shells alternating between #1 and 000 buckshot.

But backpacking is a totally different "animal". You just don't have the room in your pack or on person to lug around rifles, shotguns, bows. It's just not feasible or practical. In the backpacking community within the sport itself - surprisingly few people even pack a gun and some don't even bother with bear spray (ultralighters). Probably the vast majority don't pack a gun - whether it's Washington, Idaho, Montana. Backpackers tend to be a bit liberal and don't really like guns. They're nature lovers to sometimes an extreme IMHP.

A typical multi day trip for us would include such items as packing tent, tent poles, stakes, change of clothes for sleeping, water, water bottles, water filter, bleach for anti viral water treatment, 357 mag, ammo with speedloaders, collapsible fishing pole and reel, light tackle, flashlights, headlamps, bear spray, sak, Becker, down sleeping bags, sleeping pads, digital camera , bear bag for ANY smellables including chap stick, skeeter spray, pans from being cooked on etc..., small backpacker's camp stove, matches/lighter/flint, FOOD, bear vault (from REI) for food storage placed 100 yards from camp in grizz country, rope/cord for hanging bear bag 100 yards from camp, hiking poles, down jacket or fleece, gaiters, small shovel for digging latrine hole, t.p., glasses/contact lens supplies, backpacker's towels for wiping hands and a wet/dew tent before repacking, emergency med kit, prescriptions, skeeter head nets, antibacterial hand wipes, Bible or book, stuff sacks and compression bags for tent, sleeping bags, and clothes etc. forks, small pot and pan for cooking trout, lipton rice and noodles, etc...

Now my Dana Design Glacier pack weighs almost 6 pounds before anything is even packed in it. So it's all about trade offs on what to take and what to leave behind. My bear spray sits right in my front pouch of my attached wet rib so its always quickly and immediately assessable even with hiking poles wrapped around wrists. Same with the wife's. No way to really holster 357 because of large hip belt on pack - so it gets packed inside the pack until camp set up. Can't use my shoulder holster either because of chest and shoulder straps. But the Becker knife can be slipped over my regular small belt on the side with the Spec Ops sheath and I can use the 550 cord to wrap around my thigh for good secure fit for the BK-77.

Thanks everyone for contributing and don't be afraid to post thoughts.
Regards,
Hiker Ron
 
Have you considered attaching the .357 to the back of one pack for the other person to access?
 
I live in Bear and Cougar country, and I dont feel safe walking around with a 12gauge loaded with slugs. I would never stake my life on my knife. I always have a 357mag with me when I go out in the woods. Just something to consider.
As for backpacking Tarus? Is making some super light weight revolvers that might be somthing to look into.
 
The advantage of a knife under the circumstances Ron is describing is, if the bear wakes you up at night, you don't want to be half asleep blasting away with a shotgun or a handgun, not with another person in the tent, too. The knife may give you room to back the bear off or slow him down so you can get to spray and handgun before blasting yourselves.

A short Zulu spear would probably be even better. :)
 
Attach a holster to the shoulder straps of your pack. Using a 357 on bears will perform best if used with a 158grn or 180grn soft point or solid. Hollow points in this caliber are designed to open up on humans not the dense body of a bear.
 
Hiker Ron,

Welcome to the forums! Great to have you! If you have one of each Beckers, use them both and let us know what you think! We love to argue about knives and steels! I prefer the Carbon, but if the S30V works for you, more power to you!

I do a lot of hiking in the Colorado mtns, where cougar and black bear are the main concerns, not counting 2 legged critters. My .357 is fine for all 3. I also have a Casull that I would probably find a way to pack if I were in your shoes. I hike a lot of our peaks that are over 14,000 ft (we call them 14'ers). I don't mind the extra weight, a good trade off for peace of mind.

More power to you, enjoy our back country!
 
Ron, why hydrashocks? In the woods against animals like that, I would prefer something with more penetration. Have you looked at the buffalo bore loads? 180 grains at 1400 fps.
 
Sodak,
Thanks for the welcome. Nice to have another fellow packer! I will let everyone know about the difference between the two Becker's regarding the steel observations.

Eric 425; ashtxsniper
Thanks for that! It's been quite a while since I looked over ammo ballistics for the 357 Mag. There are better loads now. I just looked at buffalo bore website. Thanks again. That's helpful and would fit my situation better.
 
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