Before Belts and Discs

kc custom

kc custom

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Apr 20, 2005
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So back in the day of production slippies and waterwheels for power assuming this was before discs or belt grinders were all knives hollow ground on a large diameter wheel or if some of these oldies were flat ground how did they do it? Side of a large round waterstone? Just questions I wonder about.
Ken.
 
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I have seen old paintings and photos of Sheffield cutlers using stones 4-5' in diameter. That would give a pretty flat arc given the width of a knife blade.
 
Yes, those stones were large enough that the grinders would lay forward on their chest on a platform over the stones to get into a good working position where they could more easily apply pressure to the blades against the stones. There is also the matter that the blades they were grinding were typically forged more or less to shape -- they didn't have to take off a whole lot typically (that would be wasting precious high quality steel after all). When they actually wanted to "flatten" the grind they would position the blade parallel to the wheel, rather than across the wheel (I think this sort of flattening was much more typically done with things like saws). By parallel, I still mean on the face of the wheel, just along it, not across it (not on the side of the wheel - never heard of that being used).
 
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Ken,
This is an interesting subject to me.While I am no expert,and do not exactly know all details to answer your ques.,I'll add a fact I learned ,about a Penn. knife making firm Wolfertz.
It seems they were in business at some point prior to having electricity,and their grinders,whatever style they were,were driven by dogs on treadmills or something like this. I read that in BL's Guide IV
-Vince
 
I think tom is right, the stones were so big that it looks like they were flat ground, I don't think they would have ground on the side of the stone.
 
Those stones look to be 5-6'

SheffieldKnifeGrinders.jpg
 
^^^That's a great pic Tom

In the book "Back to the Grindstone" Herbert Housley says the main grindstones were 60" in diameter, and that they lasted about 10 months.

Mick
 
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Ken,

Interesting topic:thumbup:

I am not sure of the answers but I am really glad I do not have to feed the dogs and watch the weather report/stream levels before I go out and grind!;)
 
Those grinders were pretty tough fellows, not only did they often work in wet cold conditions, live with the threat of being killed or maimed if a wheel burst/exploded, inhale dust, grit and metal particles, live to 35-40 if they were lucky, they also had to put up with the "grinders count", the numbers of articles ground for every dozen they were paid for, usually fourteen, this was said to cover wasters, but was actually an imposition of the factor upon the grinder. :(

When a grindstone wore down, it was sold on to be used by other grinders making different sorts of cutlery, when it then could be no longer used for grinding being too small, the stone was known as a "grindle cowk", and could be used for making stepping stones, river bank facings, hearths etc.

Mick
 
This thread inspired me to look through a Henckels 200 year anniversary book I have. It's dated 1931 and includes some original ads pasted in, as well as photos. (Text is in German though.)

Also some photos of the hammer forge, assembly, etc. I looked up the German word under the photo and one translation did say "grinding."

Not exactly a small operation, but it's interesting how they were grinding on the top and front of the wheels. (I would hate to be the guy in front of the wheel bent over grinding all day.) There's a small cartoon-like illustration of this in the book as well.

Not what Ken asked about, but thought it was interesting.

henckelswheel005.jpg
 
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Was the boot looking thingy between the guy grinding on top of the stone and the guy bent over so if the top guy lost the blade it didn't cut the lower guys face off? Somehow maybe OSHA isn't so bad anymore.
Ken.
 
Rose_Book.jpg

This knife was ground on a platen that was made to match a section of an 8' grinding wheel.
It is hard to see the slight hollow on an 8" blade.
I'm sure a slipjoint would look pretty darn flat.
 
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Mike's picture from Germany and Mick's description of Sheffield point to some hellish and dangerous conditions. These men worked in hazardous jobs which needed considerable skill, for which they were likely not well-paid.
 
VCM3 said:
Ken,
This is an interesting subject to me.While I am no expert,and do not exactly know all details to answer your ques.,I'll add a fact I learned ,about a Penn. knife making firm Wolfertz.
It seems they were in business at some point prior to having electricity,and their grinders,whatever style they were,were driven by dogs on treadmills or something like this. I read that in BL's Guide IV
-Vince
Click to expand...

I think the dog treadmills were used by some of the old San Francisco knife makers also -- it's in BL's book on that IIRC. Will have to check. I've also seen old treadmills that were for use with sheep and such for supplying "power" - though I've never heard of knifemakers using such.
 
That's an interesting old pic Mike, I guess a pretty advanced and modern set up, for it's day ?.

I read somewhere that French grinders would carry out their work lying face down on a sort of frame, over the top of the rotating grindstone, and they got their pet dogs to sit on the backs of their legs, I suppose to keep warm, and also because of the animal's more acute sense of danger, if it jumped off, the grinder did also.

Not heard of dog powered wheels before ?.

Mick :D
 
Wellington..have you ever been to Abbeydale? I have always wanted to see the tilt hammer forges there.

hammers.jpg


It's amazing what was done with simple water wheel power
 
tomcrx said:
Wellington..have you ever been to Abbeydale? I have always wanted to see the tilt hammer forges there.

hammers.jpg


It's amazing what was done with simple water wheel power
Click to expand...

Hi Tom,

Abbeydale industrial museum, is only a stones throw form where I live, about 25 mins in the car, been quite some time since I last visited, a very interesting place, three water wheels ?, very old, self contained, built around an open courtyard, the grinding wheel, crucible steel-melting furnaces, workshops and those two tilt hammers, massive having a great oak drive shaft. The whole surrounding river Sheaf area is dotted with grassed over redundant workings.

Mick
 
Mick,

Henckels made thousands of knife patterns and other cutlery items. I have some other pictures that show the inside of various stores, as well as some more of the manufacturing process.

Here’s the large hammer.

henckelshammer006.jpg
 
When do you think we might see a generation of young men in this country that can build this machinery and work at these trades for 14 hrs. a day?
 
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