Beginner Damascus ???

[Phil Dwyer]

Hi Friends,

Del Ealy offered to give me an introductory tutorial over the phone on making damascus. That got me to thinking about what we'd talk about. I started to make some notes to email over to him to help me get focused prior to our conversing. That got me to thinking too, and I thought I might just as well share some of my process with you guys too.

Here are a bit of details as to where my Damascus making is at. I’ve only done a few billets with Indian George's press, Bertha, last summer. I learned quite a bit from IG, although I am still just a beginner. IG is willing to have me back this year so I'm hoping to press some more steel. I’m using 1084 and 15n20. Both are 1.25” wide. The 1084 is 1/8” thick and the 15n20 is about half as thick at around a 1/16”. They are cut to 6” long.

Last year I worked with 4” long pieces. I stacked them alternately 19 layers high and tack welded them together with IG's buzz box. The billet was then welded to a length of rebar for a handle. I did not double up the thinner 15n20 to make it a similar thickness as the 1084. This year, I believe I would like to try some with equal thicknesses. I’m hoping to prepare several stacked billets on handles before going down to Indian George’s to optimize my time with IG.

I’m also trying to make a form to record what I do so I can maximize my learning and be able to repeat what’s worthy of repeating. I'm finding there's a lot of info to keep track of. My plan is to keep things simple and just work with straight "random" and some twists. But it might not be so simnple. I see how the learning and discovery process could get unweildy real fast. For instance, say I wanted to compare just two different ways of stacking the metal: 1) with both alternating metals having the same thickness, 2) alternate the metals with the 1084 twice a thick as the 15n20. Now say I want to try three different layer counts: low, med and high. That's six straight ramndom billets right there (three of each different layer thickness).

Now say I want to start learning twisting, and decide to try three different twists: loose, medium and tight. This is where it goes nuts. If I wanted to try it on each of the six different straight billets (three even thickness layers, three with thinner shiny layers) it would be, six times the three different density twists for a total of another 18 billets. That would make a total of 24 billets as I still want six straight randoms.

And, at best, I'd only be at the starting line when all was said and done!

If any of you guys have some time to share some of your thoughts, suggestions and about how you do things, I'd sure appreciate it, as might some others.

Some of my questions are:

1. What’s a good working welding temperature for these two steels (1084/15n20)?
2. What layup/stacking ideas do you have given my steel?
   • 1084 - 1/8" x 1.25" x 6"
   • 15n20 - 1/6" x 1.25 x 6"
3. How thin can/should billets be drawn out for restacking, and for the final draw at completion?
4. What temperature should the these two combined steels be heat treated at? Quenching temp and soak? Quenchant type and temp? Temper temp and soak?
5. Deker, would you share the details for your knife with the open twist on your website, http://www.patternwelding.info/patterns/pattern-library/twist/? What stock, thicknesses, layup, twist rate, etc?

Well thanks guys. As you can see I'm sort of in over my head. But I have a good life guard in Indian George and a good coach in Del once I get the phone thing worked out.

All the best, Phil

 

[indian george]

Are you planning to do a billet up with pure nickel in it??????

 

[Dan Seaver]

Some of my questions are:

1. What’s a good working welding temperature for these two steels (1084/15n20)?
2. What layup/stacking ideas do you have given my steel?
   • 1084 - 1/8" x 1.25" x 6"
   • 15n20 - 1/6" x 1.25 x 6"
3. How thin can/should billets be drawn out for restacking, and for the final draw at completion?
4. What temperature should the these two combined steels be heat treated at? Quenching temp and soak? Quenchant type and temp? Temper temp and soak?
5. Deker, would you share the details for your knife with the open twist on your website, http://www.patternwelding.info/patterns/pattern-library/twist/? What stock, thicknesses, layup, twist rate, etc?

Well thanks guys. As you can see I'm sort of in over my head. But I have a good life guard in Indian George and a good coach in Del once I get the phone thing worked out.

All the best, Phil

Well Phil my experience is limited but I'll try to help where I can.

1)I have welded 15n20 and 1084 as low as 2000F but I prefer higher in the 2200F to 2400F range.

2) Depends on what pattern your making and your personal preference.

3)That depends, I like to leave my billets 1" to 1.5" thick before I cut and fold. But this is because of my hammer works thick steel better. You want your billets thick enough that they will hold their heat until you are able to weld them but not so thick that you can't easily work them.

4) The heat treat will depend on a few things. How much o2 was in your forge, how much time did the billet spend at a high temperature, and did you burn the billet. Depending on your methods you will have different amount of carbon loss; so I would suggest starting your heat treat as if it was 1070. But start with a lower tempering temperature and slowly more your way up as you feel necessary.

Sorry I can't be much more help Phil but I've heard Del is like a treasure chest full of damascus information. :thumbup:

 

[deker]

Hi Friends,

Del Ealy offered to give me an introductory tutorial over the phone on making damascus. That got me to thinking about what we'd talk about. I started to make some notes to email over to him to help me get focused prior to our conversing. That got me to thinking too, and I thought I might just as well share some of my process with you guys too.

Del is indeed a treasure trove of information, and he'll teach you more than you can likely learn

I’m also trying to make a form to record what I do so I can maximize my learning and be able to repeat what’s worthy of repeating. I'm finding there's a lot of info to keep track of. My plan is to keep things simple and just work with straight "random" and some twists. But it might not be so simnple. I see how the learning and discovery process could get unweildy real fast. For instance, say I wanted to compare just two different ways of stacking the metal: 1) with both alternating metals having the same thickness, 2) alternate the metals with the 1084 twice a thick as the 15n20. Now say I want to try three different layer counts: low, med and high. That's six straight ramndom billets right there (three of each different layer thickness).

Now say I want to start learning twisting, and decide to try three different twists: loose, medium and tight. This is where it goes nuts. If I wanted to try it on each of the six different straight billets (three even thickness layers, three with thinner shiny layers) it would be, six times the three different density twists for a total of another 18 billets. That would make a total of 24 billets as I still want six straight randoms.

And, at best, I'd only be at the starting line when all was said and done!

And now you see the nature of the addiction The best piece of advice I can give you here is to try practicing the art of "seeing" the damascus in your head. Do a low layer billet and a matching high layer billet and imagine what's happening as you work it. The time when you're re-heating is a great time to ruminate on things like this. As I've said before, it's a good practice to cut off a bit of of the end of each billet as your work and see what's going on. If you do that it will help you to see what each step is doing. Sure, you'll lose a bit of material, but it's the material that you're most likely to have to sacrifice anyways as the ends of billets generally need to be cut off to ensure clean ends of your work. They also make nice keychains if you polish and etch them Your minds eye can save you a lot of forging time once you get into the habit of seeing the steel move in your head.

[*]What’s a good working welding temperature for these two steels (1084/15n20)?

I weld between 2200 and 2300 degrees usually. If you run HOT your drawing will go quicker as well. I find that 2300 degree steel forges about twice as easily as steel at 2150-2200F. That said, you have to be prepared for the thermal mass you're dealing with. Since I got the press and have started working larger billets I've already learned a new respect for thermal mass. As it stands, with the press handle where it is my left hand welding glove regularly begins to smoke as I forge. I'll have to relocate the handle a bit to fix that

[*]What layup/stacking ideas do you have given my steel?

Start by just alternating layers until you've got your welding down pat. After that, play with it a bit. I find that the nickel bearing steel tends to show up larger than it actually is in the finished product. This goes double for pure nickel.

[*]How thin can/should billets be drawn out for restacking, and for the final draw at completion?

How fast do you want to build layers? Also, how big is the door of your forge? I tend to start with billets of 21-25 layers and a size of 1 1/2" x 2 - 3" x 6". I'll forge them down to about 3/4" thick and usually re-stack in 3-4 pieces. This brings up another decision you have to make. Do you want to cut and fold hot or cool, grind, cut, and restack? I do the latter as I tend to be on the anal-retentive side as far as surface preparation goes. As I wait for one billet to cool after drawing I'll heat and weld another. I was actually working 4 billets in the shop this morning. 2 were being ground, one was being forged and one was cooling.

In short, this is based on what you're working to accomplish. If you need 50-100 layers for a bold pattern, a single draw/cut/reweld can get you there. If you want 400 layers it can be just 2 extra welding passes if you plan right. I've somewhat stopped counting layers and think in terms of "low layer" and "high layer"...That's not to say I don't keep track of layer counts, but I pick a destination and head there.

[*]What temperature should the these two combined steels be heat treated at? Quenching temp and soak? Quenchant type and temp? Temper temp and soak?

Treat it about like 1084. It'll be close enough to eutectoid that soak time won't be terribly critical.

[*]Deker, would you share the details for your knife with the open twist on your website, http://www.patternwelding.info/patterns/pattern-library/twist/? What stock, thicknesses, layup, twist rate, etc?

That one was done as a demonstration at a hammer-in. I was going for speed somewhat since I had limited time, so it was a single weld of 19 layers of 3/16" 1095 and .057" 15n20. I drew it to somewhere between 1 1/4" and 1 1/2" square by about 18" long and then twisted the living daylights out of it (about 1 1/2 twists per inch of twisted length). It took 4 guys to get the twist done. Since it was a hammer-in and was all portable equipment, we needed 2 guys to hold the vice in place. Then, it took 2 guys with a big pipe wrench with an extra handle welded to the top jaw as a twisting wrench to twist it. Once you hit about 1 1/4" it's a REAL PITA to twist. You need a very stoutly secured vice and a lot of whup-ass to twist it. I'll do 1 1/4" solo in the shop, but I have to clamp the billet in the press and even then I won't do a tight twist. If I get 1 full rotation per heat I'm doing really well...

Well thanks guys. As you can see I'm sort of in over my head. But I have a good life guard in Indian George and a good coach in Del once I get the phone thing worked out.

I've always said "Aim for the stars. In a worst case scenario you still land on the moon...". You're only in over your head if you feel like it. Let your head do some of the work and then make your body follow as you work in the shop. Try to think through everything as you do it and after a while you'll get a feel for what a given set of operations will yield. As long as you have the basics of procedure under control (welding, drawing, twisting, etc) there's no such thing as a "mistake" in pattern welding. the worst case is the steel not looking like you expected it to look. Even then you usually get a pretty cool pattern

Take care,

-d

 

[Danbo]

Nothing wrong with doubling up the 15N20 either, since it's so thin.