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Discussion in 'Maintenance, Tinkering & Embellishment' started by bgentry, Dec 23, 2019.
Jerry Fisk does that , raise burr on beltsander, remove with a Norton India
The Knifegrinders.au & BESS Forum guys have studied deburring more than anyone. Tons of info on those sites. Knifegrinders has written a whole book just on deburring.
I think they advocate two main methods. They mostly use a tormek with a leather wheel with compound. They also have shown fantastic results with a hanging leather strop instead of a paddle strop. A Kangaroo tail supposedly makes the best strop, but cow hide is good too and much easier to source in the US. More info: http://knifegrinders.com.au/SET/Hanging_Strop_in_Knife_Sharpening.pdf
I've been on the BESS forum for a short while. Definitely some interesting information over there. I've seen the Knife Grinder's book on deburring and am considering buying it.
Thank you for reminding me.
Thanks Brian - is there a reason you only want to deburr on the grinder? I think you could do it on a stone pretty quickly and one less belt to change.
I've briefly experimented with deburring on a stone after the belt. I had some success, but not full. The two main ideas are:
1. Deburr and leave behind all of the tooth of the belt I was using. This will be somewhere between 120 and 320 grit. I want a really grabby edge. This means I would need to have a stone, or other fixed abrasive, at the same grit level as my last belt. I *do* have a washboard. So maybe I could try it with sandpaper that matches my belts. Hmm.
2. Do it efficiently. I'd like to get this done in a shorter amount of time. So far I'm slow deburring on stones. I'm slow deburring on belts. Just trying to get to a repeatable easier way of deburring that doesn't take a lot of back and forth.
@bgentry saw this video on YT and thought you might be interested. Its a Tormek-wheel style grinder instead of a belt, but same principles apply. 220 Grit->leather wheel with compound
The leather with compound seems to work well in many forms: flat strops, leather wheels, and leather belts too. My leather belt on the sander works fairly well with compound. The "problem" is that it polishes the edge more than I would like. Which is why his blade so cleanly shaves hair. I would bet it's rather smooth and not very toothy.
This morning I used my new Very Fine and Super Fine scotch brite belts on a kitchen knife as a deburring step. The VF works pretty well, followed by bare leather. Lots of tooth, but a little burr remaining. Switching to the SF, I removed more burr. Then leather and it seemed to be all gone. But so was most of the tooth. The resulting edge was pretty good. BESS 185, 190 (two tests). Slices phonebook quite well. This is another steel that seems to hold on to the burr a lot. The original edge from VF + bare leather was BESS 200. Not a lot of difference on this particular blade.
Usually what removes the burr in the case of stropping on loaded medium is that you're getting some deflection off the soft surface and as a result it's approaching the edge at a higher angle than it seems like it's being held at. Essentially the same as lightly stoning the edge at a slightly lifted angle.
No I believe parallel is the right word. = (two parallel lines). The knife edge (top line) is held downward and parallel to the bench (bottom line). Perpendicular would be at a right angle to the bench. The belt runs perpendicular to the bench.
This is REALLY making me want the BESS tester. I already use consistent sheets of newsprint to test all my sharpening, but the tester takes measurement to a whole new level
It's a bit of an indulgence for me. While it's cheap in the world of testers, it's "expensive" compared to most sharpening equipment. I think it cost more than all of my DMT 8" plates put together.
On the other hand, I don't have a lot of other hobbies. I have a few, but don't spend much money on any of them. Someone made a strong case to me that being able to measure my results with an actual number would improve my sharpening. Not so much so I can "score" the end result. More that I could test after making changes and have an actual number that told me if I had made the edge better or worse. So far I think it's pretty valuable.
Oh, and if you talk to Mike (the inventor) he will tell you that his middle model (the "B" version) is all anyone needs and is the best overall combination of resolution and value. He makes the "A" version for those that want more resolution, but he absolutely does not recommend it. The 5 gram resolution of the B is already borderline ridiculous for knife sharpness testing.
The B model seems perfect for regular use. @bgentry - I read your thread over at the BESS forum too. Great info there
Finally had a chance to use my Multi-tool 2x48 belt grinder on a few knives/tools.
- it takes a bit of tinkering to align everything and get it running true. Once accomplished it runs fairly quiet and with very little vibration.
- am glad I sprung for variable speed grinder although in practice I don't think it is a very big issue due to relative stability of the unit. It isn't even bolted to a workbench, bolted it to an 18" length of scrap 2x12 I had sitting around.
- did a few kitchen and pocket knives as well as a plane iron and chisel. The kitchen and pocket knives were run on 120 grit laze belt and microbeveled on EF diamond plate (1200 grit DMD cheapo diamond plate). I kept the micro to a minimum on the pocket knives (CS tuff lite, CS Code 4) to maintain as much tooth from the 120 as possible, the kitchen knife got some extra passes but being a utility knife was still kept pretty coarse. Both turned out very well, neither can quite treetop arm hair but will shave and do circle cuts in light paper. The grind pattern on the bevel is aggressive enough that compound get stuck in the low spots and I have to wipe it w/ denat alcohol or strop vigorously on plain paper to fully clean it up. Not a big deal but it makes me keep the stropping to a minimum.
- the woodworking tools I used a diamond grit jointering stone only to work the back side to push the burr back over and clean the edge up right to the apex. Used a leather belt with my custom silicon carbide/diamond blend, one pass at the grind angle, one pass at a few degrees higher. Edge was treetopping arm hair above the skin, the belt had eliminated all low spots leaving a uniform apex all along the edge. Was also able on the plane iron to camber it slightly, which I wasn't sure I'd be able to pull off.
- burr treatment on everything was accomplished by lightly dragging across woodgrain and/or a light scraping from the back of the burr w/ edge at 90° to the wood, also to make it stand up - this done in process, so as I worked if I saw a burr in one spot I'd stop, scrape, drag and go. This left me with small enough burr to eliminate on the microbevel. On the plane iron and chisel I manually elevated the angle and brushed off the burr on the 1200 diamond plate prior to hitting it w/ the leather belt. The plane iron is a bevel side up, edge angle approx 25°, so had to be a little more ginger about scraping burrs without inducing a ding or collapse.
All in all a nice upgrade over the 1x30 HF if only for the increased stability and I also feel like the longer/wider belt presents more flat.
- the motor did heat up but nothing crazy. One could do some regrinds and shaping of blanks but it probably will bog down if you lean on it.
thanks for the review! I'd really like to try one of these. It seems like people either love them or hate them. They can't be beat for the price, especially if you already own a grinder.
How would you compare them to using paper wheels on a similar grinder/motor?
I really don't know, I haven't used my paper wheels yet. I have serious misgivings about my ability to do repeatable work on the wheels without a ton of setup per knife or tool. I had considerable trouble getting my wet wheel grinder to do repeatable precision work and the paper wheels will have some of the same issues doing accurate angles and different curvatures with a guide on a wheel.
I do not like to use powered sharpening without a pretty good guide, although I'm sure the paper wheels work well freehand (probably ideal for this), esp if only being used to remove the burr. I'll be taking another look at them after I get all the kinks worked out.
The leather belt on this unit is working better than I expected, went back and redid the plane iron and chisel and was able to hit original angles perfectly, shrunk the amount of camber on the plane iron, finished the same way. One of the techs was handling the plane iron blade after I left last night and checking it on his thumbnail almost put it through.
Honestly it isn't a huge amount faster than doing them by hand except for the initial bevel setting, but I could do a set of them, one after the other and by hand I'd be getting worn out after two or three.
As for the Multitool, if you're willing to finesse it and bend a few bits to fit properly, it seems like a pretty rugged unit. Again, if you're going to be grinding blanks or doing serious regrinds you'd need to put in some added support on the arm, as it does flex under pressure. Overall pretty solid little unit, runs quiet enough that hearing protection is probably optional. The variable speed 8" grinder is a nice option. I modified my wet wheel guides to work on the horizontal belt, combined with the knife guides from my 1x30 and a benchstone holder for the platen, it has all the functionality I could want except for a waterstone bath.
Will get back to you on the paper wheels for finishing. It is unlikely I will ever use the grit wheel.
Mark the sides of the wheels with a protractor. And you will find by holding the blade straight (parallel to the floor) you will find the appropriate spot on the wheel. Practice with an old hacksaw blade first. I've used belts, ko worksharp and find the paper wheel to be superior and more efficient. If you haven't I would read the sticky. There's a load of good info there.
Thanks for the reply. I feel the same way about belts/stones vs. wheels. I know there are lots of ways to help with the geometry of a wheel, but its hard for me to get my head around it vs. the flat plane of a belt or stone.
I spent a lot of time setting up to be able to go from belt to stone and back if necessary. Introducing a wheel changes everything. Freehand for finish work is a possibility, but making multiple passes on a wheel and picking it up at the exact same angle and grind path, esp around the belly is way beyond my skill level.
Will take another look at the sticky, had many conversations w/ Richard J back in the day and made my own 6" wheel but was never able to get comfortable with it. Did manage to make a few sawzall blades into sharp utility knives, but the cosmetics were so far out of spec I could never have used it for commercial work.
Not pushing you. But mount your wheels running away from you. This way your at the top of the wheels. I think it's an easier way. But that's everyone's choice. Check that sticky. And good luck!
Will have to wait till Monday for a proof of concept, but pretty sure I've come up with an accurate and repeatable way to address the paper wheel that is unlike the Tormek approach.
It should work with all my current jigs, so hopefully by Tues I'll have some feedback. Honestly I expect edge finish quality to be pretty high, just need to make it play well with the rest of the gang.