Bench Stone Recommendation

[ejames13]

Alright boys, let's do this.

The knife is the ZKC C02 in 440C. Pay no attention to my crappy looking bevel as I have been using this knife to practice different sharpening techniques, and in doing so, I have worked the bevel into an uneven mess.

Let's, however, undo all that on the Beston Five Hundo and see how sharp we can get this thing.

I cut off my apex and worked a new burr, flipping it several times just to make sure I was working with a good fresh edge. This was the mud generation (lots of swarf, definitely some stone too though):

Then I cleaned off the stone and did some gentle, burr-minimizing strokes. Actually came off the stone really clean, but what kind of madman wouldn't strop anyway?

My strop is definitely reaching the later stages of it's life...

The result was effortless push cutting both with and against the grain on phonebook paper:

Need a shave?

But really, for the question we're all wondering... will it whittle?

The edge would strip multiple curls off the strand before eventually cutting it. The other half of that hair has some curls on it, but it has fallen somewhere on my bathroom mat and I can't locate it.

So anyway, the Beston 500 should definitely get you where you wanna be. A greater progression will produce easier/effortless hair whittling and other various extremes, but the Beston and stropping alone will let you split hairs which, good God man, is that not high enough for you?!

Awesome! Really appreciate the test and pictures to go along with it. Now I know if I can't get my knives that sharp on the Beston I have nothing to blame but my technique.

What is that strop made of, and what kind of compound?

 

[RadialBladeworks]

Awesome! Really appreciate the test and pictures to go along with it. Now I know if I can't get my knives that sharp on the Beston I have nothing to blame but my technique.

What is that strop made of, and what kind of compound?

That right there is what I like to call a Canadian strop. It's a hockey tape substrate on a marble tile and the compound used is standard green chromium oxide at ~.5 micron

 

[Roikyou]

Do many people just pass up the strop? I’ve got the .1 micron emulsion kangaroo strop but after a 10k chosera, the burr is gone and the edge is smooth. Ive been wonduring whats the point.

 

[RadialBladeworks]

Do many people just pass up the strop? I’ve got the .1 micron emulsion kangaroo strop but after a 10k chosera, the burr is gone and the edge is smooth. Ive been wonduring whats the point.

If you get up that high, then technically you don't need a strop as the stone is fine enough to strop on anyways. I would personally set a microbevel with a couple strops on the stone and then would be fine skipping the leather. But that's just me. I really like stropping.

If you leave that stone without a burr (and can verify that), then you don't need the strop as burr removal (and subsequent edge cleaning) is the purpose of stropping. The reason you may want to strop anyway is because the burr simply may be too small for your methods to detect (which in turn begs the question: then is the burr too small to hinder practical cutting, regardless?) and the strop is just a nice guarantee/safety for removing it.

Stefan Wolf on Youtube, for example, regularly sharpens his IKEA vegetable cleaver in X50 on the Crystolon Fine and, aside from burr-minimizing strokes, the man doesn't strop in any way, shape, or form, and his edge glides wonderfully through his paper (it is printer paper, but you can hear how clean the cut is).

 

[clovehitch]

I've been using DMT stones for over 20 years, so I have to recommend them. I just get the ~$35 2x7"? bench stones in coarse, fine, and extra fine. Then I'd recommend a good combo waterstone with 2000 or 3000 on one side and 5000-8000 on the other, and then strops (bass wood/leather) and diamond compound. You'd be looking at well under $200 for enough supplies to last a long time. I think some people get carried away with the number of stones but that's just me. The diamond stones will always be flat, cut quickly, and cut vanadium. The waterstone will smooth out the scratch marks made by the diamonds, then you're just a final touch up on the strop away from top notch sharpness. After 8,000 you could start with 1 micron and go on as low as you want. You can skip grits in the progression also unless you're dealing with s110v or anything else high vanadium. I am not saying this method is best whatsoever, but with practice you will certainly treetop or whittle free hanging hairs.

 

[ejames13]

My Beston and CKTG diamond plate arrived yesterday. I soaked the Beaton overnight and gave it a go today. Needless to say, I need some more practice.

I practiced with a crappy kitchen knife I have, and figured since I don’t care about it at all I would go ahead and try to reset the bevel using the 140 grit diamond plate. I was able to raise a burr and flip it back and forth within minutes. I found it pretty easy to maintain a consistent angle with the diamond plate. However, once I moved to the Beston I had more trouble. I was able to eliminate the burr from the diamond plate pretty quickly once I moved to the Beston, but that’s the odd thing...I can’t seem to develop much of a burr to flip back and forth on the Beston.

I tried the sharpie trick and it looks like I’m hitting the bevel on both sides with a single pass, but somehow the edge I end up with is pretty poor. I can’t draw cut magazine paper but not even close to push cut, and it doesn’t grab hair or shave at all. Examining the edge under a loupe it appears like a clean apex on both sides with no viable burr, but it’s just not sharp.

Do I just need to be more consistent in holding my angle? Or is perhaps the edge is too coarse to go straight from the 140 diamond plate to the Beston?

 

[RadialBladeworks]

My Beston and CKTG diamond plate arrived yesterday. I soaked the Beaton overnight and gave it a go today. Needless to say, I need some more practice.

I practiced with a crappy kitchen knife I have, and figured since I don’t care about it at all I would go ahead and try to reset the bevel using the 140 grit diamond plate. I was able to raise a burr and flip it back and forth within minutes. I found it pretty easy to maintain a consistent angle with the diamond plate. However, once I moved to the Beston I had more trouble. I was able to eliminate the burr from the diamond plate pretty quickly once I moved to the Beston, but that’s the odd thing...I can’t seem to develop much of a burr to flip back and forth on the Beston.

I tried the sharpie trick and it looks like I’m hitting the bevel on both sides with a single pass, but somehow the edge I end up with is pretty poor. I can’t draw cut magazine paper but not even close to push cut, and it doesn’t grab hair or shave at all. Examining the edge under a loupe it appears like a clean apex on both sides with no viable burr, but it’s just not sharp.

Do I just need to be more consistent in holding my angle? Or is perhaps the edge is too coarse to go straight from the 140 diamond plate to the Beston?

So, the first concern is obviously if you’ve apexed the edge, but it appears that you have, so two more things are now of a concern:

Clean your apex off on a strop; the Beston Five Hunnit is a little to aggressive to effectively do it off the stone. Then try shaving. If that doesn’t work, and you have for SURE apexed and stropped without rounding your apex (which because you’re new you may be prone to do) then I suspect your angle is just too high.

You have to hold the edge at a higher angle then you apexed at in order to shave hair, so if you ended up putting a 50 degree inclusive bevel on your knife (which is easy to do when starting out) it will not want to shave. Nor will such a fat angle want to go smoothly through magazine paper either.

So I say hold the blade so low that you risk scuffing it on the stone. Then apex the knife again. Then strop at that same nice low angle, being sure not to round out the apex if you’re using a softer strop surface. And cheapshit stainless is a little difficult to work with too, so if you succeed at getting that knife shaving sharp, you can be pretty confident you can do the same or even better on higher quality steels

 

[bucketstove]

Examining the edge under a loupe it appears like a clean apex on both sides with no viable burr, but it’s just not sharp.

Do I just need to be more consistent in holding my angle? Or is perhaps the edge is too coarse to go straight from the 140 diamond plate to the Beston?

Hi,
Beston makes mud/slurry right?

I think your edge is ready for an apex
All you would have to do is raise angle and do 1-5 ultra light edge leading alternating passes
Sharpmaker would be perfect for this


But,
If you want to use a muddy/slurry stone,
you have to rinse rinse the mud from it,
maybe let it dry a little

 

[ejames13]

So, the first concern is obviously if you’ve apexed the edge, but it appears that you have, so two more things are now of a concern:

Clean your apex off on a strop; the Beston Five Hunnit is a little to aggressive to effectively do it off the stone. Then try shaving. If that doesn’t work, and you have for SURE apexed and stropped without rounding your apex (which because you’re new you may be prone to do) then I suspect your angle is just too high.

You have to hold the edge at a higher angle then you apexed at in order to shave hair, so if you ended up putting a 50 degree inclusive bevel on your knife (which is easy to do when starting out) it will not want to shave. Nor will such a fat angle want to go smoothly through magazine paper either.

So I say hold the blade so low that you risk scuffing it on the stone. Then apex the knife again. Then strop at that same nice low angle, being sure not to round out the apex if you’re using a softer strop surface. And cheapshit stainless is a little difficult to work with too, so if you succeed at getting that knife shaving sharp, you can be pretty confident you can do the same or even better on higher quality steels

I had previously set the bevel for this knife on the Sharpmaker diamonds at 30 deg. So I know the angle is right around there because I tried my best to match it when I started on the diamond plate.

Interestingly enough I took it back to the diamond plate and raised a burr again, then after cleaning up the edge as much as possible I microbeveled on the Sharpmaker at the 40 deg setting and I could effortlessly shave hair. So seems like something I’m doing wrong on the Beston.

It’s strange, the edge almost feels more dull off the Beston than right off the diamond plate.

 

[ejames13]

Hi,
Beston makes mud/slurry right?

I think your edge is ready for an apex
All you would have to do is raise angle and do 1-5 ultra light edge leading alternating passes
Sharpmaker would be perfect for this


But,
If you want to use a muddy/slurry stone,
you have to rinse rinse the mud from it,
maybe let it dry a little

I wouldn’t call it muddy, but it does shed a little bit of grit. I continually washed the slurry while sharpening though. I actually did take it to the Sharpmaker at the very end and the edge was not impressive at all. In fact, as I mentioned above, I went back to the diamond plate and went straight to the Sharpmaker from there. That gave me a pretty nice edge. So for some reason I’m having trouble with the Beston.

 

[RadialBladeworks]

I had previously set the bevel for this knife on the Sharpmaker diamonds at 30 deg. So I know the angle is right around there because I tried my best to match it when I started on the diamond plate.

Interestingly enough I took it back to the diamond plate and raised a burr again, then after cleaning up the edge as much as possible I microbeveled on the Sharpmaker at the 40 deg setting and I could effortlessly shave hair. So seems like something I’m doing wrong on the Beston.

It’s strange, the edge almost feels more dull off the Beston than right off the diamond plate.

Well, seeing as I can develop a solid burr on mine, I might suggest just working it until a wicked burr develops. That’s home, right there. Get that burr, knock it off. Because clearly, given the Sharpmaker results, its not the steel or anything like that. It sounds like an issue with apexing, or successfully cleaning the apex off. What are you using to deburr off the Beston? It will also be considerably slower a stone than the 140 diamond plate so it will take more time to work with it... although it still shouldn’t take LONG per se

 

[HeavyHanded]

Many waterstones, especially softer/muddier ones will have considerable difficulty generating a burr compared to a more fixed abrasive media. This is exacerbated by using or emphasizing a leading edge pass.

Once you are sure you've ground to the apex, finish with some trailing passes and then inspect for a burr. If one hasn't stood up or developed from a trailing pass then you're ready for further refinement or it should be a solid utility edge right at that stage.

 

[ejames13]

Well, seeing as I can develop a solid burr on mine, I might suggest just working it until a wicked burr develops. That’s home, right there. Get that burr, knock it off. Because clearly, given the Sharpmaker results, its not the steel or anything like that. It sounds like an issue with apexing, or successfully cleaning the apex off. What are you using to deburr off the Beston? It will also be considerably slower a stone than the 140 diamond plate so it will take more time to work with it... although it still shouldn’t take LONG per se

I was trying to debur with light alternating strokes on the stone, then a bare leather strop. I currently don’t have any compound.

I built myself a sink bridge out of a 2x4 so I could use the stone under the dripping faucet. This seems to make a considerable difference in the effectiveness with which the stone cuts. Much better than me continually splashing it with water (this thing is insanely thirsty). I was able to raise a burr pretty easily, but couldn’t completely knock it off with the stone. I did a few light passes on the sharpmaker and then the bare leather strop and it’s easily shaving now. However, I’d like to eliminate the Sharpmaker step and get it as sharp as possible with just the stone.

 

[ejames13]

Many waterstones, especially softer/muddier ones will have considerable difficulty generating a burr compared to a more fixed abrasive media. This is exacerbated by using or emphasizing a leading edge pass.

Once you are sure you've ground to the apex, finish with some trailing passes and then inspect for a burr. If one hasn't stood up or developed from a trailing pass then you're ready for further refinement or it should be a solid utility edge right at that stage.

Are edge trailing strokes generally preferred for these types of stones, or water stones in general?

 

[RadialBladeworks]

I was trying to debur with light alternating strokes on the stone, then a bare leather strop. I currently don’t have any compound.

I built myself a sink bridge out of a 2x4 so I could use the stone under the dripping faucet. This seems to make a considerable difference in the effectiveness with which the stone cuts. Much better than me continually splashing it with water (this thing is insanely thirsty). I was able to raise a burr pretty easily, but couldn’t completely knock it off with the stone. I did a few light passes on the sharpmaker and then the bare leather strop and it’s easily shaving now. However, I’d like to eliminate the Sharpmaker step and get it as sharp as possible with just the stone.

Niiiice, okay that sounds much better lol. Yeah it's a really thirsty stone hey? If you want to eliminate the Sharpmaker step, you'll need some compound on that leather. It cleans that edge up like magic--assuming you've deburred decently on the stone. Standard green chromium oxide works well and is very cheap. I personally go stone->deburr on stone->strop with compound->a few final swipes on bare leather or denim and get quite excellent results. I have found there's only so clean you can get your edge directly off such a coarse stone. To the point where you can't feel any burr, but after a quick stropping on some half micron, the result rapidly becomes, like, ten times better

 

[HeavyHanded]

Are edge trailing strokes generally preferred for these types of stones, or water stones in general?

Yes.
On some of the really hard composition ceramic ones it makes less of a difference, but on softer or muddier ones it becomes increasingly important to finish with trailing passes.

My sequence goes like this:
- scrubb, emphasize the trailing component
- deburr with light leading passes
- scrubb, again emphasizing trailing component with super light pressure.
- finish with just a few very light trailing passes, verify burr free

Edit to add: Is important to realize that while many waterstones can give good stand alone edges at low and medium grit it is my belief that they are really made to work in a progression. The softer, muddier stones at low and low/medium allow you to reset the edge without raising a large burr, or causing too much subsurface dislocation of the crystal lattice.

This sets the edge up nicely for further refinement with less fuss than you might have with a lot of burr formation or deeper scratch troughs possible from a more firmly fixed, durable abrasive.