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The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Benchmade BT2 and HSS users: Please read!
- Thread starter Barry H
- Start date
- Joined
- Nov 25, 1999
- Messages
- 1,499
- Joined
- Nov 24, 1999
- Messages
- 4,981
The HSS means high spped steel. Its M2 which is a tool steel that will hold an edge for a long time. However its not a stainless( not even close ) so it requires the BT2 ( black teflon ) coating to protect it from corrosion.
ATS34 is a stainless steel which gives great performance and has fairly good corrosion resistance. But it to will rust under the right conditions, so the BT2 coating is something to think about if your around salt water or other corrosive enviroments.
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I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer... but I've got the sharpest knife in the room.
ATS34 is a stainless steel which gives great performance and has fairly good corrosion resistance. But it to will rust under the right conditions, so the BT2 coating is something to think about if your around salt water or other corrosive enviroments.
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I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer... but I've got the sharpest knife in the room.
- Joined
- Oct 16, 1998
- Messages
- 2,395
M-2 is finer grained, meaning you will find it easier to put a shaving edge on M-2 than ATS-34. I think Benchmade's new 154CM blades are finer grained than the ATS-34 blades too, so you might not detect as much of a difference between M-2 and 154CM.
Benchmade's M-2 is also much tougher than their ATS-34. Tips will take a little more abuse before snapping, and the edge will be less likely to chip if abused. The difference in tip durability is significant.
Benchmade's M-2 is also much tougher than their ATS-34. Tips will take a little more abuse before snapping, and the edge will be less likely to chip if abused. The difference in tip durability is significant.
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2000
- Messages
- 3,625
154 is a more pure steel, which makes it less likely to rust. The lack of purity in ATS-34 was why Chris Reeve went to BG-42 which is made to a vastly higher standard of control.
Many argue that ATS-34 holds an edge roughly the same as M2, but without the same rust problems.
M2 is very much tougher however.
In my opinion, M2 is a much better steel than ATS-34 and in my experience holds and edge much longer.
BT2 is a pain when marked, but rust not! Swounds! its good!
Sblood! I love it! My fav steel right now!
Gimee gimee gimee a 705 in M2!!!
W.A.
------------------
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto
Many argue that ATS-34 holds an edge roughly the same as M2, but without the same rust problems.
M2 is very much tougher however.
In my opinion, M2 is a much better steel than ATS-34 and in my experience holds and edge much longer.
BT2 is a pain when marked, but rust not! Swounds! its good!
Sblood! I love it! My fav steel right now!
Gimee gimee gimee a 705 in M2!!!
W.A.
------------------
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto
- Joined
- Nov 3, 1999
- Messages
- 1,684
General, I'm not sure what you mean when you say "154 is a purer steel" than ATS-34. If it is because 154 doesn't have any phosphorus or sulpher, where 134 does (in seemingly scant amounts), why do those elements degrade 134? I'm no expert in steel technology, so I would really like an explanation.
Thanks!
Barry Haugen
Thanks!
Barry Haugen
- Joined
- Oct 3, 1998
- Messages
- 4,842
Barry,
Below I've reproduced part of an email conversation I had with the head metallurgist (I think he's the head) at Crucible. Obviously, consider the source when you read this. But also note that every knifemaker I've talked to confirms Crucible's claim about today's 154-CM being cleaner -- and hence finer-grained and tougher -- than ATS-34. Sorry if the formatting doesn't come out. This is re-printed with permission, although I've promised not to reveal the author.
---
Joe,
Thanks for getting in contact with us. I've seen your posts on the
Forum and I'm glad you came to the horse's mouth.
Let me give you a time line of where this grade was and where it is now.
Our steel mill is a rod and bar mill. 15 or more years ago, we did not
produce sheets of steel, but instead rolled thin bars.
Thin bars were the preferred material for stock removal blades. 154CM
was a bearing material produced primarily in round bar form for that
market. The cutlery end of the grade was a side market and since the
stainless bearing market is not huge kept the volume up. Crucible
marketed this grade primarily through knife supply houses and really
didn't come into direct contact with the knife industry.
One myth from that time that continues to plague the grade is that 154CM
was vacuum re-melted. This grade was never produced with vacuum re-melt
technology. At the time it was air melt material. Today it is melted
differently, but I'll cover that later.
As the stainless bearing market continued to shrink, it became more
difficult to justify an 80,000 lb heat of 154CM, especially for the
smaller cutlery industry. At the same time, the industry converted to
using sheet product, which allowed lazer cutting and more versatiliy of
widths. Put all this together with Crucible having no direct contact
with the market and guess what, we were out of the business. Take a
note of how many supply houses carry sheets of steel. None.
A little over 10 years ago the distribution part of Crucible became it's
own divison. The number of warehouses doubled and this division became
very intimate with its markets. The Service Center Divsion is not
limited by the mill's production and can convert material using outside
sources (i.e. sheet products). With this in mind we entered back into
the 154CM, 440V, 420V,etc. business and intend to stay there for quite a
while. We dove back in about 3 years ago with the help of one of the
larger knife producers and have been getting better every year. The
mill still melts the material, but we stock the sheets in our warehouse
system for cutting into various sizes.
Now this brings us to the material production. Like I said earlier,
many years ago, this material was produced by air melt technology.
Today it is produced by the Argon/Oxygen/Decarburization process (AOD).
This is the primary way to produce quality stainless steels. It is not
as clean as re-melted steels but is about as close as you can get and is
much cleaner than 15 years ago. 3 years ago when we entered back into
the 154CM market we were concerned that the ATS-34 was cleaner than
ours. We found just the opposite. They do not re-melt their material
either and in numerous tests with knife makers and polishers our
material was much cleaner. Based on our sales and responses from our
customers, the myth of the dirty 154CM is behind us for good.
Now for the future. We are still adapting to the needs of the market.
Many of the larger companies purchase full sheets and this is easy for
us. Cut strips and pieces are another story. Since we can't possible
stock sheet product in every district (We have 26 warehouses in North
America) we are setting up one of our warehouses to handle the small
piece business for the whole country. This project is currently in
motion and will be completed by year's end. As soon as you see our ad
in the magazines you will know we're ready.
-------- end of quote
Below I've reproduced part of an email conversation I had with the head metallurgist (I think he's the head) at Crucible. Obviously, consider the source when you read this. But also note that every knifemaker I've talked to confirms Crucible's claim about today's 154-CM being cleaner -- and hence finer-grained and tougher -- than ATS-34. Sorry if the formatting doesn't come out. This is re-printed with permission, although I've promised not to reveal the author.
---
Joe,
Thanks for getting in contact with us. I've seen your posts on the
Forum and I'm glad you came to the horse's mouth.
Let me give you a time line of where this grade was and where it is now.
Our steel mill is a rod and bar mill. 15 or more years ago, we did not
produce sheets of steel, but instead rolled thin bars.
Thin bars were the preferred material for stock removal blades. 154CM
was a bearing material produced primarily in round bar form for that
market. The cutlery end of the grade was a side market and since the
stainless bearing market is not huge kept the volume up. Crucible
marketed this grade primarily through knife supply houses and really
didn't come into direct contact with the knife industry.
One myth from that time that continues to plague the grade is that 154CM
was vacuum re-melted. This grade was never produced with vacuum re-melt
technology. At the time it was air melt material. Today it is melted
differently, but I'll cover that later.
As the stainless bearing market continued to shrink, it became more
difficult to justify an 80,000 lb heat of 154CM, especially for the
smaller cutlery industry. At the same time, the industry converted to
using sheet product, which allowed lazer cutting and more versatiliy of
widths. Put all this together with Crucible having no direct contact
with the market and guess what, we were out of the business. Take a
note of how many supply houses carry sheets of steel. None.
A little over 10 years ago the distribution part of Crucible became it's
own divison. The number of warehouses doubled and this division became
very intimate with its markets. The Service Center Divsion is not
limited by the mill's production and can convert material using outside
sources (i.e. sheet products). With this in mind we entered back into
the 154CM, 440V, 420V,etc. business and intend to stay there for quite a
while. We dove back in about 3 years ago with the help of one of the
larger knife producers and have been getting better every year. The
mill still melts the material, but we stock the sheets in our warehouse
system for cutting into various sizes.
Now this brings us to the material production. Like I said earlier,
many years ago, this material was produced by air melt technology.
Today it is produced by the Argon/Oxygen/Decarburization process (AOD).
This is the primary way to produce quality stainless steels. It is not
as clean as re-melted steels but is about as close as you can get and is
much cleaner than 15 years ago. 3 years ago when we entered back into
the 154CM market we were concerned that the ATS-34 was cleaner than
ours. We found just the opposite. They do not re-melt their material
either and in numerous tests with knife makers and polishers our
material was much cleaner. Based on our sales and responses from our
customers, the myth of the dirty 154CM is behind us for good.
Now for the future. We are still adapting to the needs of the market.
Many of the larger companies purchase full sheets and this is easy for
us. Cut strips and pieces are another story. Since we can't possible
stock sheet product in every district (We have 26 warehouses in North
America) we are setting up one of our warehouses to handle the small
piece business for the whole country. This project is currently in
motion and will be completed by year's end. As soon as you see our ad
in the magazines you will know we're ready.
-------- end of quote
- Joined
- Oct 7, 1998
- Messages
- 1,838
Mr. Mitin; I congratulate you on a most excellent review! I confess I missed it, as I don't often visit that forum. You really provided an abundance of good information, well organized and illustrated. Good job!!
Regarding comparisons between M-2 and ATS-34, check out Wayne Goddard's edge holding tests here
Walt (PS: Harv; why don't you have your wife get you a cheap screwdriver set so you can stop using the tip of your knives as screwdrivers?
)
Regarding comparisons between M-2 and ATS-34, check out Wayne Goddard's edge holding tests here
Walt (PS: Harv; why don't you have your wife get you a cheap screwdriver set so you can stop using the tip of your knives as screwdrivers?
- Joined
- Nov 25, 1999
- Messages
- 1,499
Mr. Welch, thanks for kind words!
Honestly I do not taking my test results too scientifically because of a lot of random factors influencing test accuracy. The most important of them a particular blade's geometry.
Here: http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/001863.html I have obtained even more weird results, discussing them we jointly considered that edge geometry can influence edge hold in rate comparable with steel properties. Speaking about comparable range's steels of course.
[This message has been edited by Sergiusz Mitin (edited 12-18-2000).]
Honestly I do not taking my test results too scientifically because of a lot of random factors influencing test accuracy. The most important of them a particular blade's geometry.
Here: http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/001863.html I have obtained even more weird results, discussing them we jointly considered that edge geometry can influence edge hold in rate comparable with steel properties. Speaking about comparable range's steels of course.
[This message has been edited by Sergiusz Mitin (edited 12-18-2000).]
- Joined
- Oct 16, 1998
- Messages
- 2,395
I have had knowledge of three 154CM blades in the last couple of years, on the MT SOCOM, the SpeedTech Synergy, and a Benchmade 730 Ares. In each case, I found that the 154CM blade edges would take a fine, razor edge without forming the big floppy burrs that production ATS-34 is won't to produce. It was therefore much easier to put shaving edges on them. I am not sure what this means beyond ease of sharpening. The Synergy blade did not seem to be remarkably tougher than the ATS-34 blades I compared it to, but then nothing seemed to be remarkably tougher than anything else in the tests that I did.
Whatever it means, I like the 154CM better than ATS-34.
Whatever it means, I like the 154CM better than ATS-34.