Benchmade Company Question?

[redisburning]

Production oversea isn't devaluing the brand.

Im going to have to generalize here for a second, but you are from Europe, and attitudes in Europe about overseas production are not the same as they are in the states.

Here the worst thing a "luxury" company can do is offer cheaper products. It's hard to build a reputation as a top maker and you may not believe me but bringing their product down to a lower market has utterly blown up in the faces of several companies, including Tiffany's, Omega, etc. Take away exclusivity, take away "made in America", and your status may very well go away with it. Americans dont want to spend a lot of money on products made in China or Taiwan if they can get an American product.

Benchmade is clearly pushing a strategy that suggests they want to move themselves up the totem pole. Their pricing strategy and discontinuation of the red class lines are, imo, irrefutable evidence to that effect.

 

[Noumenon]

Im going to have to generalize here for a second, but you are from Europe, and attitudes in Europe about overseas production are not the same as they are in the states.

Here the worst thing a "luxury" company can do is offer cheaper products. It's hard to build a reputation as a top maker and you may not believe me but bringing their product down to a lower market has utterly blown up in the faces of several companies, including Tiffany's, Omega, etc. Take away exclusivity, take away "made in America", and your status may very well go away with it. Americans dont want to spend a lot of money on products made in China or Taiwan if they can get an American product.

Benchmade is clearly pushing a strategy that suggests they want to move themselves up the totem pole. Their pricing strategy and discontinuation of the red class lines are, imo, irrefutable evidence to that effect.

This is probably true. There was a beer company that was always considered a cheap beer but recently reformulated and moved their prices to a premium level. Their sales units fell but they ultimately made a larger profit than before.

 

[Sep]

Just a few corrections. We've been seeling Wal-Mart for a good many years. Everyone of them has been USA made. Additionally, we've made knives in China for a long time as well.

We've never had a "Made in the USA" only strategy.

Moving down? You're not making sense.

I'm unsure you really understand.

I'm sorry, I was not specific enough and I glossed over the detail. I shouldn't have said "USA Only". Kershaw Vapor is made in China and it's been sold for a while. Still, the rest of the Kershaw brand is shipped with "Made in USA" clearly marked on the blade and Old Glory on the box. I remember the uproar when word got out that you are planning to sell more Kershaw branded China made knives here, because (contrary to the fact) in many people's mind Kershaw brand is USA only.

I forgot that KAI does have a facility in China from a while back making scissors, razors, kitchen knives, and surgical instruments.

So I take it you're not going to offer your new China made models to Wal-Mart? It seems natural since Wal-Mart is probably the biggest seller of China made consumer products anyway. It won't be the first time either.

Fast forward to 2010: Benchmade is dropping its Red Class so they can say that any knife branded "Benchmade" is made in USA. Let's see, KAI extends the Kershaw brand by adding even more china made products, while Benchmade shrinks its namesake brand by dropping china made products entirely. This is what I called the see-saw, and I think it's far from coincidental.

The economy is still bad and unemployment is still high. In this condition selling cheap knives seems to be the smart thing to do, and you get them cheap by manufacturing them in China. Wal-Mart's US sales actually grew higher in 2009. However, the unemployment creates resentment toward any overseas product (especially from China), so having bragging right that your brand is USA only has marketing value. Only time will tell which one is the better path.

 

[J85909266]

You’re right. I have no justification for calling you or anyone else a liar without facts to back it up. OK, so it’s an amazing story. Next time I’ll let the reader decide.

Please accept my apology.

Apology accepted, but I wouldn't call it an amazing story.

Brand supporters tend to vastly exaggerate quality and fit and finish on these forums. It's certainly not exclusive to BM, either. I've owned over 100 Spydercos over the years, and at least half of them had either some blade play, an off center blade, a bad grind or some other flaw. I went to Walmart and examined the three USA made knives that they offer. The Skyline had a blade so off center it was touching the scale, and the OD1 and Zing both had blade play. The Kulgera was brand new at the time, and they were probably working out kinks with the fit on those first few runs, and we were unlucky.

I see all kinds of wild exaggerations about quality in regards to the big three daily on these forums. I've owned my share of them all, and it is not uncommon to get a folder with a bit of play or an off center blade, at all.

That's why it doesn't surprise me that so many think Sebenzas are overrated and that their cheaper knives are just as good. Their standards and attention to detail are apparently too low to realize just how imperfect their folder is compared to something like a Seb.

 

[Doc Pringles]

Good point. Thanks again!!

 

[redisburning]

The economy is still bad and unemployment is still high. In this condition selling cheap knives seems to be the smart thing to do, and you get them cheap by manufacturing them in China. Wal-Mart's US sales actually grew higher in 2009. However, the unemployment creates resentment toward any overseas product (especially from China), so having bragging right that your brand is USA only has marketing value. Only time will tell which one is the better path.

If I may make a point here.

Unemployment is high for lower income peoples. In fact, it is about 30% in the lowest 10th of income earners (which is frankly apocalyptic). HOWEVER, unemployment for households that made 100k+ is under the natural level of unemployment. In other words, there is full employment for very high income earners.

Walmart's sales rose because the middle group of earners were hit hard too. But going to a cheaper strategy "because the economy is bad" isnt necessarily the right move. In fact, if I were running a company, I would be trying to capture as much of the income from top earners as possible as their marginal tax rate is set to return to its previous level. They can still afford whatever toys they like, be it fancy knives or cars or whatever.

Please reference : http://www.clms.neu.edu/publication/documents/Labor_Underutilization_Problems_of_U.pdf

for all relevant data.

That's why it doesn't surprise me that so many think Sebenzas are overrated and that their cheaper knives are just as good. Their standards and attention to detail are apparently too low to realize just how imperfect their folder is compared to something like a Seb.

I would agree with this sentiment. I have personally had lemons from benchmade where I literally could not believe that the knife had left the factory. One of the scales on the first mini rukus I recieved was too big and forcing it on the liner created a huge gap between the g10 and micarta peices that you could easily stick a larger jeweler's screwdriver down into it. And they have a serious problem with backspacers. The best knives Ive gotten from benchmade still have uneven backspacers. Personally I've had significantly better luck with spyderco in this regard, but all of the models I've owned from them I would personally consider to be a considerable step up from their entry level offerings. And every time I say I dont think the tenacious is worth more than it's costs I get people asking "why?" And then I get to be the guy to dump on something they like? Not a ton of fun, really. Even on my SnG I dont understand why they didnt cut the lock bar screw off, it doesnt even come close to the blade, but it does kind of make me nervous lol.

 

[Sep]

If I may make a point here.

Unemployment is high for lower income peoples. In fact, it is about 30% in the lowest 10th of income earners (which is frankly apocalyptic). HOWEVER, unemployment for households that made 100k+ is under the natural level of unemployment. In other words, there is full employment for very high income earners.

Walmart's sales rose because the middle group of earners were hit hard too. But going to a cheaper strategy "because the economy is bad" isnt necessarily the right move. In fact, if I were running a company, I would be trying to capture as much of the income from top earners as possible as their marginal tax rate is set to return to its previous level. They can still afford whatever toys they like, be it fancy knives or cars or whatever.

Please reference : http://www.clms.neu.edu/publication/documents/Labor_Underutilization_Problems_of_U.pdf

for all relevant data.

I agree. This example is anecdotal, but it's quite consistent with the trend: while the company I work for hasn't quite brought back all their laid off hourly workers, they have filled the salaried positions up to pre-recession level and then some.

I say there's market for both. Blue collar guys still need their tools. Everything else being equal (quality, function, etc.), the cheaper ones will get their money, and even more so during this time. If you're more worried about making mortgage and paying bills, you're less worried about where a particular product is made. If it gets the job done, it gets the job done.

Then there is the boutique crowd, the 100K+ earners, people who can actually afford to buy only American products. They're what Benchmade is going after.

Honestly, all big 3 knife manufacturers have products for all markets (lower income, higher income, military & law enforcement, aficionados, etc.), so they're pretty diversified. None of them put all their eggs in one basket. As somebody mentioned, even though Benchmade discontinues Red Class, they're still producing high value knives under other brands (H&K and HD) so they really don't lose the manufacturing pipeline. The main difference between the 3 is their focus.

 

[Thomas W]

I forgot that KAI does have a facility in China from a while back making scissors, razors, kitchen knives, and surgical instruments.

Unlike most, we do actually have many facilities in China that make a diversified grouping of products, including pocket knives. Sorry for being off topic here.

So I take it you're not going to offer your new China made models to Wal-Mart? It seems natural since Wal-Mart is probably the biggest seller of China made consumer products anyway.

Although it may seem natural, the new board (July 2010) will consist of USA made only products from Kershaw. Unfortunately this brings on the Wal-Mart controversy as opposed to the Made in China whine. Sometimes you just can't win. Again, sorry for the thread drift.

Fast forward to 2010: Benchmade is dropping its Red Class so they can say that any knife branded "Benchmade" is made in USA. Let's see, KAI extends the Kershaw brand by adding even more china made products, while Benchmade shrinks its namesake brand by dropping china made products entirely. This is what I called the see-saw, and I think it's far from coincidental.

I have a pretty strong grasp for the obvious (thanks for explaining it though), but the above was not what I was referring to when mentioning that I don't think you understand. It's probably an area in this conversation that is best I keep to myself though.

The economy is still bad and unemployment is still high. In this condition selling cheap knives seems to be the smart thing to do, and you get them cheap by manufacturing them in China. Wal-Mart's US sales actually grew higher in 2009. However, the unemployment creates resentment toward any overseas product (especially from China), so having bragging right that your brand is USA only has marketing value. Only time will tell which one is the better path.

I'm unsure about the resentment sentiment, do you have any examples to back up your statement?

...all big 3 knife manufacturers .

I keep hearing this "big 3" talk. Kai USA is not a competitor of either BM or Spyderco IMO. We do "volume" manufacturing. The other "big 2" are specialty manufacturers that focus on price points that far exceed our focus. I guess we're doing something right to be mentioned constantly as one of the "big 3" here. Perhaps that's why we catch some grief on occasion from the voices of the "big 2". I've always looked at those put downs as hand wringing compliments.

 

[Noumenon]

I keep hearing this "big 3" talk. Kai USA is not a competitor of either BM or Spyderco IMO. We do "volume" manufacturing. The other "big 2" are specialty manufacturers that focus on price points that far exceed our focus. I guess we're doing something right to be mentioned constantly as one of the "big 3" here. Perhaps that's why we catch some grief on occasion from the voices of the "big 2". I've always looked at those put downs as hand wringing compliments.

Despite being a "volume" manufacturer you manage to put out comparable enough or the same quality for people to debate which model to buy among the 3 companies when it comes to similar(size, blade steel, etc.) models. I think only the snobbiest knife guys put their nose up because of your more voluminous and economical models. At least one of your (non)competitors is catering to the lower tier while also maintaining quality, so I would think you are doing something right too.

 

[Sep]

I have a pretty strong grasp for the obvious (thanks for explaining it though), but the above was not what I was referring to when mentioning that I don't think you understand. It's probably an area in this conversation that is best I keep to myself though.

You are smarter than I am, for I still don't understand what you're talking about. While my industry is close to yours, it's still quite different. Don't be shy in telling me that I'm wrong or full of crap, because I never claim to be always right.

I'm unsure about the resentment sentiment, do you have any examples to back up your statement?

I don't have statistical data, but come on, don't tell me you don't see people rail against you just because of an increase in your made-in-China line up. It's not exclusive against China; in the technology sector they hate India because many tech jobs are outsourced there. I personally don't care where a product or service originates as long as it meets my quality standard, but I have met many who does.

I keep hearing this "big 3" talk. Kai USA is not a competitor of either BM or Spyderco IMO. We do "volume" manufacturing. The other "big 2" are specialty manufacturers that focus on price points that far exceed our focus. I guess we're doing something right to be mentioned constantly as one of the "big 3" here. Perhaps that's why we catch some grief on occasion from the voices of the "big 2". I've always looked at those put downs as hand wringing compliments.

When you say "we", do you mean just Kershaw? Because your Zero Tolerance line is not priced for volume sales. True volume manufacturers like Gerber and CRKT don't have knives street-priced far above $100.

 

[greater]

Although I strongly disagree with some of Benchmade's policies and find many if not most of their knives to look conservative, plain, and boring, I can say without any exaggeration at all that their quality, fit, finish is typically so top notch that I use them as the defacto standard which I measure other folders against.

Although I really like Benchmade they are by no means my favorite since I tend to like funky shapes, weird colors, and super ergos. It would be unfortunate if they choose to cut corners since quality is their strongest selling point. I have not read very many complaints about them in this regard so my impression is that they still are top quality like all of the ones I have handled.

 

[Skimo]

BM is my benchmark, and my main source of knives.

Many of BMs knives can be pretty boring, and like you I like different colors, I'd like to see more tool steel blades with coatings other than black, I'd also like to see more full flat grinds like the Lum Dejavoo.