Benefits of Hamon?

That special is interesting, but has several inaccuracies.
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Would you care to elaborate? Guys like me usually will look at programs like that as scripture so it'll help us out alot.
 
MilliePop said:
Would you care to elaborate? Guys like me usually will look at programs like that as scripture so it'll help us out alot.
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While not wanting to speak for others, I can say all the shows I have seen on Japanese swords mix some facts with some of the hype that katana's usually receive. Much like the poster last month that stated his friend studied Japanese history as a profession, yet still believed the swords where quenched in human bodies. While most of the specials don't go that far they tend to portray Japanese swords as the pinnacle of technology even today. When in fact a trip to a tai kai will most likely show that a well made L6 katana will usually out cut the more traditional ones. This isn't to downgrade what these smiths accomplished in there times, but they will not slice machine gun barrels in half and as the other posters have said there is little need for this type of hardening with modern steels.
 
Thanks for all of the information guys. I think it looks really cool and will give it a shot on the next blade.
 
Some of the metallurgy was wrong or misstated, especially on the differential structures and the cause of the curvature. The folk lore dramatism ( cowering prisoner, samurai battle in the woods,etc.) was a bit of a distraction, but, sadly, that is what many will remember from the show.
Stacy
 
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Stax, just my 2cents worth. I have gotten the best results from 1095 and W2. You'll need to water quench(Brine) or use a fast oil(Parks # 50). This seems to give me the best results. Or if you have an extra human body.:D:D
 
Sam, the "Sneeze Hamon" :D

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Dustin Golat said:

When in fact a trip to a tai kai will most likely show that a well made L6 katana will usually out cut the more traditional ones.
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Are you referring to L6 Bainite such as Thomas Howard's? Please elaborate on this statement for I would like to learn more about this steel? Such as would it be good for a large camping knife and such.
 
I'll let Dustin defend his statement, but just to insert my POV on this.

L-6 is an allow that makes good knives, and some say swords. It is tough, and takes a good edge. Its toughness is the primary advantage, though. It is superb for choppers and camp knives. This is when the L-6 is hardened and tempered in the normal methods. The blade done by standard methods is martensite.

If L-6 is hardened and upon cooling the temperature is held between 400F and 700F for several hours ( never dropping below this point after quench), the austenite does not form martensite. It goes into a structure called bainite.This process is called ausquenching, or austempering. Bainite has its advantages in some industrial functions, but as a structure for blades, it is not really all that useful. A properly hardened and tempered martensitic blade is as good or better (much better in most peoples opinion). Bainite is exceedingly tough ( good in a blade), and is quite ductile ( not good in a blade), at quench it is about Rc55, with tempered blade hardness of around 48-50 being a good guess. Not too soft for a sword....buy why???

I don't know anything about Thomas Howard, but Howard Clark makes an L-6 bainite katana. There is a lot of disagreement among metallurgists and among sword people, what advantage this actually has ( if any). A far as cutting goes, a bainite edge is softer than a martensite edge. It is never going to out cut martensite. However, PR ,folk lore, and such things, has samurai swords cutting anvils in half....so maybe an L-6 bainite katana is the ultimate weapon ????

Stacy
 
Stacy, good info on bainite but Howard hardens the edge of his L6 sword blades after the bainite process. The way he does this is not widely known. His DVD is good footage of him and others trying to destroy a L6 sword, pretty amazing. With that said, I like his 1086M blades better.

Edit to add; the bainite body of a Howard Clark L6 blade is 48-50 Rc and the edge is 58-59 Rc.
 
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Don and Stacy are both correct. I have seen These swords in use and was impressed, however it was just that. I don't have the time or methods to honestly test the real world difference between the two swords. Also most of the "traditional" katanas in use that day where swords like Last Legend, Paul Chen, and Angel swords, with a few modern made Japanese katanas. In other words, a custom made sword from a great maker vs. mass produced blades and some by less known makers. However, the L-6 by Howard was one hell of a cutter. I don't think anyone was saying it would cut an anvil, and of course it can't. Regardless, in a tai kai you will see quite a few blades that are not differentially heat treated and still cut well due to modern steel. The person cutting is of much more importance than the heat treat (within reason of course, good HT is the soul of any knife) at this point. Now when you get into cutting things like bamboo and enemy samurai, that differential HT may prove much more useful. I know that in tameshigiri new cutters would often bend a blade slightly and sensei would have to re straighten it. One would think the differential HT would help this but after reading metes explanations of flexibility in steel, I am not sure at all.

I must say that one of the best cutting demos I have ever seen was done with a traditional and very old Tokugawa era katana. I watched an almost 90 year old man slice HUGE bamboo, both fresh and dried, like it was not even there. There are a few pics of Nakamura cutting 2 double rolled tatami mats with bamboo cores with a single Kesa giri and preform chiburi and noto before gravity can even affect the cut pieces. So there is nothing wrong with a well made traditional katana, I just don't think they represent the height of technology anymore. They do represent an art that should never die or be forgotten however and I would hate to see all modern cutting swords in competition. In my opinion far to many martial arts have been distilled into sports and as such no longer offer the insight and benefits of true martial training. Many sports such as Taekwondo and Kendo have become reflections of the rules of the sport, and often teach things that would get you killed in a real fight but will score a point in the ring.

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Hi, my name is Sam. Been a member here for a little while but this is my first post in the forum. I've been a maker since 94. The last few years have been getting away from the knives and doing a lot of Chinese weapons, namely swords. And currently in the process of building a furnace and tank to Bainite heat-treat my Jian blades. I've never seen a blade that begs to be Bainite heat-treated like a Jian. Several years ago I wanted to make fillet knives and contacted Howard Clark to teach me. I spent four days with him learning how to heat-treat blades. Any blade is only as good as the heat-treat it was given and sought out Howard to teach me.
My fillet knives are Bainite heat-treated and come out of the salt at 57RC. the process Howard taught me is as follows. Heat the steel (15N20 or L6) to 1475F, quench in a bath of 450F salt and hold in the bath for one hour. That will yield a 57RC blade. Yes I have tested them, 57 on the nose. For my Damascus Fillet knives I do the same critical temp and hold them at 450F for 12 hours. My Damascus fillet knives are 15N20 or L6 and 1080. The commercial fillet knives I have tested are 54-55RC. I have used this process for several years and have made many fillet knives with it. They are tough to beat for edge holding and toughness. I'd like to pass on what Howard taught me about Bainite heat-treating. I know it makes some of the best fillet knives I have found.
 
Don Hanson III said:
Stacy, good info on bainite but Howard hardens the edge of his L6 sword blades after the bainite process. The way he does this is not widely known. His DVD is good footage of him and others trying to destroy a L6 sword, pretty amazing. With that said, I like his 1086M blades better.

Edit to add; the bainite body of a Howard Clark L6 blade is 48-50 Rc and the edge is 58-59 Rc.
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You like the 1086M better, because it has a nicer hamon....if you ever bent one, you would like the L6 better.

There isn't one cutter that I know who trains for sport....you train for your own reasons, but winning a tournament is a by-product of good training, plain and simple.

That said, the "winningest" swords I know of are the Kotetsu line produced by Hataya Sensei at a forge in Thailand, and finished in Japan, if memory serves.....but they are bendy blades, and it is common to see a bad cut produce a DQ due to inability to resheath the katana in the saya.

Which goes back to the L6...practically impossible to bend, and allows for a thinner sword, which CAN make a more efficient cutter. I have a 1086M blade that was retired after the first bend, repair and polish which cost $1,500...it gets expensive.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kohai999 said:
You like the 1086M better, because it has a nicer hamon....if you ever bent one, you would like the L6 better.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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You make a good point my friend. Howard's L6 blades are truly amazing but I do love a nice hamon :D

Sam, you had a hell of a teacher! Bet those fillet knives are good!
 
Ductility is the ability to permanently deform without fracture. It specifically refers to elongation and changes in thickness. A sword that stretched or dented easily would not be a good one.

I have read that the L6 bainite katana are very flexible, and resist breaking, but that has nothing to do with cutting ability. In fact, a too flexible blade may be a poor cutter, even with a good edge.

Stacy
 
bladsmth said:
I have read that the L6 bainite katana are very flexible, and resist breaking, but that has nothing to do with cutting ability. In fact, a too flexible blade may be a poor cutter, even with a good edge.

Stacy
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The advantage in the L6 bainite is not necessarily the flexibility, that tends to come from it being thinner as well.

The advantage is that it doesn't break, and will not take a set unless encountering extreme circumstances. Even when cutting mats that are maybe 20"+ in diameter,(like two medium sized people side to side, facing each other) I have not seen katana break....have seen a LOT of blades bend, so that is the problem we as cutters deal with.

Obviously TOO flexible is not good, although have actually heard of some Chinese swords that are very, very flexible, and decent cutters...just have no experience with them.

DO have 10+ years of experience cutting with Japanese styled blades, and have bent EVERY one of them to some degree(katana and wakazashi), at some point, except for my Bailey Bradshaw L6 katana, which is probably not bainite, but is a heck of a durable cutting sword.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
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