Benefits of needle thrust bearings?

Friction force is calculated as the coefficient of friction multiplied by the normal force (force perpendicular to the contact surface). Neither is dependent on surface area in contact. Changing surface area does, however, effect pressure (force per unit area). Subjecting an object to high external pressure leads to high internal stresses, which could lead to deformation of the object. Different materials have different amounts of resistance to deformation. I am quickly getting off topic...let me know if you need some more info :o

How about explaining that in English? LOL.
 
This doesn't really explain it, but it demonstrates the concept.

[video=youtube;idYX7kkRqbs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idYX7kkRqbs[/video]
 
Ok, let me preface this post by saying that I am not an engineer and have no technical expertise in the field. I am in no way trying to dispute discredit or troll your post. That being said;

Can you explain to me please how friction and surface area are not related ( I believe this is what you are saying)? It would seem to me to make sense that a decrease in surface area between two opposing pieces would also decrease friction. There must be a physical principal that I am unaware of. Once again, not disputing, just trying to learn something. Thanks.

What you are missing is that the bigger the surface area is, the smoother it will be. Since there is a lubricant involved, in best case circumstances, the metal parts do not touch each other, but ride on a thin film of lubricant. The lubricant thus defines the friction "level".

In a dry system, of course the bearings would always win. Some ceramic bearings are even built to run dry.

Problem with bearings is dirt. If it gets into the races, it will be gritty and damage them too. You need a seal. For minimal dirt and/or water intrusion they must be semi "tight". They are mostly like little rubber lips. They also introduce some (neglible) friction.

The proper system is washers. Bearing are pretty sexy things though.
 
This doesn't really explain it, but it demonstrates the concept.

[video=youtube;idYX7kkRqbs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idYX7kkRqbs[/video]

Ok, I think I get it now. According to the experiment, if I have a pivot using washers with a .25" OD, there would be no increase in Friction if I were to increase to a .5" OD washer. However friction increases when I tighten my pivot screw.

Amazing the things I learn on BF.
 
Ok, I think I get it now. According to the experiment, if I have a pivot using washers with a .25" OD, there would be no increase in Friction if I were to increase to a .5" OD washer. However friction increases when I tighten my pivot screw.

Amazing the things I learn on BF.

You've got it all figured out :thumbup:
 
What you are missing is that the bigger the surface area is, the smoother it will be. Since there is a lubricant involved, in best case circumstances, the metal parts do not touch each other, but ride on a thin film of lubricant. The lubricant thus defines the friction "level".

Doesn't seem to be the case. Read bpeezer's explaination, and watch the vid. Interesting stuff. I'm not disputing that lubricant affects the results, but surface area does not affect friction.
 
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All of it? Not quite...

You can't forget that surface area is in direct correlation with a mirror polished, stonewashed, or bead blasted finish...

Asperities bring a whole new level of excitement to the table (not to mention lubrication). What you are referring to is actually surface roughness, which acts differently than "simple" surface area. It gets very interesting when analyzed on a microscopic scale :D

l9SU6SI.jpg
 
All of the coefficient of friction stuff doesn't really work very well when the actual surface pressure is so low that it is in the same range as the surface tension of the lubricant.

Whether it is a thrust bearing a ball bearing, the total surface area does matter - fewer bearings on smaller races turn easier under no load than larger ones. Anyone who has spent time working on various bearings of a bicycle knows this.

The problem with thrust bearings and washers is that the "work" they provide is at the edges, not in the middle. A bigger washer makes the turning part more stable as it rotates on its axis, decreasing other areas of drag, but the increased surface area means surface tension is going to be higher. But if you use a big washer that has less surface area you get more even loading with less surface tension.


Purple,

"Stiction" is already an engineering term, usually used to describe the tendency for aluminum to stick under load. Having worked with titanium spindles and bearings for years, I have yet to hear anyone suggest that titanium work hardens into a harder, smoother race under load. Any engineering reference you'd care to post would be appreciated. Titanium tends to work harden in the worst ways from friction and wear - usually leading to surface fracture which is most similar to galling.



This is an interesting discussion, but there seems to be a lot of theory that doesn't really match up with simple real world observations of how simple machines function.

And if you want something more to ponder - consider that thrust type needle bearing used in knives cannot roll their entire length because they are rolling across multiple circumferences. So some part of the bearing is always dragging on the races.


I don't think much of bearings because good washer systems can be incredibly smooth, and are much stronger than bearings. But if you like them - great. Just don't overtighten them because tight bearings do much greater damage than tight washers due to the tiny surface areas.
 
Whether it is a thrust bearing a ball bearing, the total surface area does matter - fewer bearings on smaller races turn easier under no load than larger ones. Anyone who has spent time working on various bearings of a bicycle knows this.

Great observation, but this is more likely due to decreased moment of inertia rather than decreased surface area.
 
All of the coefficient of friction stuff doesn't really work very well when the actual surface pressure is so low that it is in the same range as the surface tension of the lubricant.

Whether it is a thrust bearing a ball bearing, the total surface area does matter - fewer bearings on smaller races turn easier under no load than larger ones. Anyone who has spent time working on various bearings of a bicycle knows this.

The problem with thrust bearings and washers is that the "work" they provide is at the edges, not in the middle. A bigger washer makes the turning part more stable as it rotates on its axis, decreasing other areas of drag, but the increased surface area means surface tension is going to be higher. But if you use a big washer that has less surface area you get more even loading with less surface tension.


Purple,

"Stiction" is already an engineering term, usually used to describe the tendency for aluminum to stick under load. Having worked with titanium spindles and bearings for years, I have yet to hear anyone suggest that titanium work hardens into a harder, smoother race under load. Any engineering reference you'd care to post would be appreciated. Titanium tends to work harden in the worst ways from friction and wear - usually leading to surface fracture which is most similar to galling.



This is an interesting discussion, but there seems to be a lot of theory that doesn't really match up with simple real world observations of how simple machines function.

And if you want something more to ponder - consider that thrust type needle bearing used in knives cannot roll their entire length because they are rolling across multiple circumferences. So some part of the bearing is always dragging on the races.


I don't think much of bearings because good washer systems can be incredibly smooth, and are much stronger than bearings. But if you like them - great. Just don't overtighten them because tight bearings do much greater damage than tight washers due to the tiny surface areas.

Thats fine that stiction is an engineering term. Im not an engineer, so I dont use the lingo and I use the word in a different context because of my ignorance to the term all ready having a place in your world. Just like golden shower probably means something different to various people you may encounter. And I dont see anything wrong with using the term for my own purposes because well, I want to. If you want more information about cold rolling a bearing race into titanium I suggest you contact Flavio Ikoma, Korth, Todd Begg, Ken onion or any of the numerous knifemakers who do exactly what I am talking about in their IKBS knives. As that is where the information comes from. The people who make, use and test these things. And that is who I am going to trust to build a knife. I will trust an engineer to build a bridge, building, or structure where I feel thinking inside the box is beneficial.

here is a link to the IKBS tech website that explains who to create the race in the titanium. There you have heard it. http://ikbsknifetech.com/20801.html
 
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Back in the day Harley Davidson would say don't use synthetic oil because the roller BRGs will skip not roll, ever since they started selling their own synthetic oil they highly recommend and use it.

Does anyone use Randy oil ?

Your knives will flip faster !
 
Thank you for the link.

I'm not an engineer. You're not an engineer. And the IKBS folks are definitely not engineers.

This kind of tinkering is testament to the enterprising can-do attitude of knifemakers. But this system involves as many sound engineering principles as using old engine oil for heat treatment or the science of "edge packing".

It works because it is being used under essentially zero load. Which is where plastic and PB washers work well, too.

BTW, neither "work" nor "harden" are words used anywhere I could find on the IKBS website. It does not appear that they are claiming that the race you gouge into the scales is any harder than the surrounding metal.



I do like that they offer licenses. Ballsy.
 
Asperities bring a whole new level of excitement to the table (not to mention lubrication). What you are referring to is actually surface roughness, which acts differently than "simple" surface area. It gets very interesting when analyzed on a microscopic scale :D

No, I'm actually refering to surface area...

I understand exactly what you're talking about, but I'm coming at this from a mathematical/topological standpoint. However, asperities would be the proper term from an engineering point of view. Truly, a stonewashed finish would have more surface area than a mirror polish, but surface area wouldn't be the game player in "smoothness"; that's where the term asperities comes in.

It's kind of like those jokes about the engineer and the mathematician:D
 
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