Best Bang For The Buck in Customs

Hi Ankle,

Here in lies the double edge of "bang for the buck".

When people list a bang for the buck maker are they talking near or short term?

Or are they talking about a maker who is a proven winner. Long term performance and demand.

Nothing wrong with buying what you like. However, look at some of the names on this thread. In the totality of the custom knife market are they Bang for the Buck makers....no.

You do bring up a good point about buying in several steps in order to get the one knife you really want. Over the long term by buying a knife, selling it (usually losing money), adding more money to it and buying another knife...only to reapeat the previous steps.

This knife will take you forever to get. Kind of like credit card debt, you never get it paid off making minimum payments.

Buy what you like, just do your homework.

When someone tells you someone is a Bang for the Buck maker...make sure they know why that maker is one.
 
Now that you mention it, that Schuyler Lovestrand CC-1 Vanguard Knife is a kick-ass bang for the buck. I mention this because if you sell out then I can stop thinking about buying it.
 
Well, like it or not, i did start this thread, and it seems clear to me now that i need to clarify what my original intent was in beginning the thread, and what i meant by bang for the buck.

First, I think Les has made excellent points, it is so very common in the internet world, and really life in general, for people to push their own choices and favorites on others, and this extends to many hobbies, im about as guilty as anyone. I know from having been on gun forums that the best way to start a neverending thread is to ask what the best of something is, and youll get a long list of what each person owns. At the very least, in my defense, i do a lot of research to base my opinions on, and i only recommend knives that i have owned or seen. The custom knives i have bought were bought by me because yes, i believe them to be the best bang for the buck, and i find them appealing.

But, what i should have clarified is the following. I was not speaking in terms of resale value, or talking about a knife as an investment, rather, i was looking for a maker who's designs, materials and quality, are comparable to knives made by more expensive makers. Take resale value out of it, take the "name" out, pure and simple, is the design and quality comparable to knives which cost a lot more, but for whatever reason, the maker doesnt charge as much. I know that in Custom knives, a lot hangs on the name of the maker, and with the name comes resale value, and i realize that this is not unimportant, but, i was limiting my question, or i now limit it to makers who, name and resale value aside, offer a knife of extremely high quality, in fit, finish and design, for a very reasonable price, a lot of materials, craftsmanship and design for the price, bang for your buck.
 
Meg,

Most of your threads have a common theme. You are looking for a $1,000 knife for $200 or you are looking for the next great knife maker that no on knows who he is...including the maker.

Nothing wrong with this, I think most of us who have been into custom knives for awhile have/are looking for the same thing.

You are looking for near term bang for the buck makers. Those who do excellent work, but have no proven track record.

The good news is, there are makers out there like that.

examples:

Jason Jacks
Trace Rinaldi
Bud Weston
Rob Brown
Dan Farr
Mike Snody

There are makers who just a few years ago were in this category:

RJ Martin
Larry Chew
Ken Onion
Brian TigheJohn Fitch
Geno Denning

To name a few.

One of the problems that happens with these makers is that once they are preceived as "bang for the buck" they generally get swamped with orders for one or two particular knives. As most are part time, this takes them a year out very quickly. A few more order, an extra 5 hours a week at work for several months, family emergency, illness, etc. Now the maker is 1 1/2 - 2 years behind.

Filling all those orders he was so happy to get and now that rule his life.

This is where the long term part comes in. In order to really be a bang for the buck maker. These makers have to wade through that and come out the other side with their knive still in demand.

You commented about removing the makers name out of the equation. That is viturally impossible to do. The "name" or more to point of fact the "Brand Name" that is on the knife. Is earned through years of hard work and dedication to the craft.

Do people pay more for Heinz Ketchup then a lesser known brand? Of course they do. Is it because Heninz has better tomatoes? No. Do they use different salt, water, different type of plastic to put the Ketsup in? No.

Heinz, for whatever reason has proved over the years that they are the leading Ketchup. As such leaders demand and get more money.

Custom knives are products that are marketed just like anything else.

Have you ever seen a Loveless Drop Point Hunter for instance?

If you took the name Lovless off of it and put on Schmedlap. Would people really pay $1,800 for it. Of course not. You would be lucky to get $250. Then if you laid it next to a Geno Denning hunter of the same type, you would be lucky to get $150 for it.

This is an extreme example of the name (and what it means in the custom knife market) becoming more important than the quality or type of knife that it is on.

Due to a combination of not only making quality knives for an extended period. But their contributions to custom knives.

Moran and Loveless have become "THE" brand names in custom knives.
I have been buying custom knives for over 18 years now. I have bought a lot of knives I thought were from bang for the buck makers. Many of those maker's have lost their bang. They are either now sitting on the plateau those chose to conduct business from or they are out of custom knives totally.

One of the benefits of being a dealer is the amount of knives you get to see and handle. As such we generally hear about the new up and coming makers (who may eventually become bang for the buck makers) first.

Dealers don't have a better eye that experienced collectors. But most dealers I know have developed their own "filters" regarding custom knives and their makers.

Because we by and sell knives specifically to make a "buck". Generally, we are not affored the "luxury" of guessing wrong. Each time we do this it costs us money.

Ive recommended this in other threads. That each collector should develop filters that show the collectors both the makers positive and negative aspects.

Takes time to develop these, but it will save you thousands of dollars long term.

OK Meg, this is what you are looking for.

The best $375.00 Tactical Folder in the world is currently being made by John W. Smith. The knife is his skeletonized titanium handle, frame lock, and a S30V blade. Get one and compare it to any other $375 custom tactical folder, and Im sure you will agree.

Now that is Bang for the Buck.
 
Hi Joss,

Nice looking knife, however you didn't do anything to answer what makes Nick a bang for the buck maker.

So what makes Nick a bang for the buck maker?
 
If I didn't know better ( and perhaps I don't) this sounds like a discussion about stocks. :)
This kind of discussions of "aftermarket value" etc always seems like "shadow effect" of the current market, no?
This is just curious observation-
Martin
 
Originally posted by Les Robertson
Hi Joss,

Nice looking knife, however you didn't do anything to answer what makes Nick a bang for the buck maker.

So what makes Nick a bang for the buck maker?
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Fair enough.

1 - Nick has demonstrated in this knife and others (e.g., the push dagger that was featured in Blade) that he is an excellent knifemaker. He's got several years of experience making and selling knives.
2 - I know that he is also an excellent bladesmith by some anecdotal evidence, such has the fact that he has repeatedly and succesfully quenched 52100 in water. Plus, I've seen him work...
3 - He's got tons of equipment, which demonstrates both is commitment as well as give a strong indication of how efficiently he can work. It's also a mark of his commitment to the "art" for the next several years.
4 - Nick is 24, so he's got a lot of time to develop both his skills and his brand / reputation".

JD
 
Hi Joss,

Lots of excellent knife makers out there.

Lots who have "tons" of equipment.

At 24, you are correct he should have lots of time to develop into a great maker. However, what is to say that he will?

Can you compare his work both quality wise and price wise to other makers who are doing similar work?

What markets would you put him in. How does he compare regionally as opposed to nationally?

Is he an ABS Mastersmith? If not when will he be?

Whatis the price range of his work?

You have seen him quench 52100. How is this important? Is this steel that much better than 1084, 1095 or 5160 both. Is there more of a demand for 52100 as opposed to the other carbon steel mentioned that would make his work more desireable?

His work looks very nice in the picture. So this is why I would like to know more about his current and what you think his future position in the custom knife market is and will be.
 
Originally posted by Les Robertson
Lots of excellent knife makers out there.
Click to expand...


Lots of not so good makers too, or people who rely solely on their reputation.

Lots who have "tons" of equipment.
Click to expand...


...and I would argue that it's more a positive indication, all things being equal, than not.

At 24, you are correct he should have lots of time to develop into a great maker. However, what is to say that he will?
Click to expand...


I think he's already a very good maker - i.e., his blades as they stand right now offer a lot of value. As to whether he'll continue, this is unknown, of course - but his dedication, the time & $ he's already invested is some good indication of his commitment.

Can you compare his work both quality wise and price wise to other makers who are doing similar work?
Click to expand...

I can certainly compare his work positively to a couple MS...

What markets would you put him in.
Click to expand...

Traditional fixed blades for the moment, mostly bowies, hunters, and fancy daggers. He also has some good experience in damascus, and I've seen him use some fancy stuff (i.e., a lot of TiMascus) on a fancy dagger.

How does he compare regionally as opposed to nationally?
Click to expand...

Reputation wise? Difficult to say for me - you're better placed to say if his name is mentionned here and there. He's had one feature in Blade. But he's obviously a new maker.

Is he an ABS Mastersmith? If not when will he be?
Click to expand...

If he was, you would have heard of him before that. I don't know how long it's going to take him. One variable is whether he takes classes at Texarcana, which could reduce is Companionship from 3 yrs to 1.

Whatis the price range of his work?
Click to expand...

No idea - you'll have to ask him.

You have seen him quench 52100. How is this important? Is this steel that much better than 1084, 1095 or 5160 both. Is there more of a demand for 52100 as opposed to the other carbon steel mentioned that would make his work more desireable?
Click to expand...

I won't get into a metalurgy discussion on whether 52100 is better than this or that, if only for the reason that it depends what you want to do with it & what you're looking for. It's often described as a 5160 on steroids. It's also the same steel used in high qual. ball bearings. They had to expand the grain size charts for the steel, because it was able to get so much finer grain than others.

The key thing is that it's a 1% C steel, not esp. easy to heat treat (very sensitive to over-heat), and oil-quenched. Water quenching is extremely severe on that and requires impeccable grind lines, thermal cycling, and temperature. It's been done before, but it ain't easy.

His work looks very nice in the picture. So this is why I would like to know more about his current and what you think his future position in the custom knife market is and will be.
Click to expand...

Sure. My take is that (1) his finishes are *perfect*, (2) he's an excellent bladesmith, and he's blades are extremely well heat treated, etc. This by itself makes his knives a good choice from a purely utilitarian perspective. If you add to that the fact that he's 24 and has huge potential to develop into a top maker, the speculative value of the knife is there too.

JD
 
Hi Joss,

Good answers. However one of them struck me as one of the core issues of this thread.

" quote:What is the price range of his work?

No idea - you'll have to ask him."

Joss, a "bang for the buck" maker by definition is one who gives you exceptional quality for the money.

If you don't know what he charges for his work. How can you say he is a bang for the buck maker?

I think you can see how this could be viewed as a problem.
 
Makes sense. I haven't seen enough of his pieces for sale (3 or 4) to have a very clear range.

JD
 
I saw this thread kinda late but I'll add my opinion though.
Please note that I am not talking investment/resale value. I am just talking quality over price.

Here is a knife I have purchased from Tom Lewis, ABS Journeyman smith.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=180673

From the moment the knife arrived, I was amazed with the quality for the price. I like this knife more and more every time I handle it. The grinds, the finish, the taper, the handle, everything is top notch. If someone showed me the knife and asked me how much I think it costs, no way I would have guessed.
 
Just some thoughts from our history. Who was the best bang for the buck? Sticking to knifemakers who are no longer living I would suggest studying the knives of Rudy Ruana, Frank Richtig, and Bill Scagel. What did they all have in common? A great cutting instrument and all based on origonal thought. An investment in any of their knives would easily result in a current value of over 17 times the purchase price.
 
Ed, I'd have to agree with you on these gents, but of the current living bladesmiths, you'd qualify as well with your work on the high performance blade and there would be others as well...
 
Interesting thread and some sage wisdom from maker and dealer alike.

As a consumer, the best bang for the buck from my perspective is a knife I admire and desire.

I do see "stampede" factor as what drives some of the market. A maker that offers a product at an attractive price can control a "niche" market simply through perceived value. Soon, these are the makers in demand with long or unavailable wait periods and upward prices.

I'm a fan of the "classics" and find good deals from time to time. These are the best bang for the buck from my wallet. Some of the "new discoverys" like Voorhis and Riley
sure do seem like incredible value. I own neither but see them as just two of the prime candidates.

The truth is that it _is_ pretty subjective and we buy what we can justify _as_ the best bang for the buck.

Cheers

GC

I've no Bone™ to pick at this point in time
but seem Stek™ on some of the folded steel of Evans and Cashen ;)
 
Well, I have seen some great advice and replies so far, i think both sides have good points, certainly the concepts of resale and market value based on a makers name and rep are important, but so is evaluating a knife based on its OWN merits, in other words, look only at the knife and its price, not who made it, to decide if its a good value. I cant believe my thread lasted this long.

I just wanted to pick up on what someone was talking about. I buy what i like, what i like is first and foremost a good design, one thats aesthetically pleasing to my eyes, i also want exceptional quality, top notch materials and precise fit/finish, and though this may seem shortsighted, i honestly dont care WHO made it, or how long his waiting list may be, if _I_ like it, if its design, materials and quality satisfy me, thats as far as i need to look. I realize this means i may have to eat a few bucks when it comes time to sell, thats the relatively low cost of possessing something you very much enjoy having, and well worth the price in my opinion. And, if you do happen to choose well, and choose very good values in your knives, you may not lose so much money anyway.

I still maintain that NAME ASIDE, take the makers name/rep completely out of the equation, there are some knives out there that have a design, materials, fit and finish that is comparable, maybe even SUPERIOR to many knives costing far more. Thats not to say that there arent some very expensive knives that DO justify their high prices, i have certainly seen high-dollar knives that were truly phenomenal looking, and probably well worth the money, what im saying is that there are some relatively low priced knives, in the $1,000 range, that can give the big boys a run for their money, literally, IF what youre looking at is PURELY the design, materials, fit and finish, and you dont worry about the makers reputation and resale value down the road. Look at the knife only, not who made it. I guess this is the difference between someone who collects for sheer enjoyment, and one who sees knives as investments, and certainly there is nothing wrong with either group. If youre lucky or have a very good eye, you may end up being both. All i know is i LOVE a good custom knife, and hopefully i am choosing good values as i continue on in this wonderfully satisfying hobby. Even if you dont choose knives from the guys who will become sought after in the future, the true up and comers, but do, at least, choose knives with a universally appealing design/look to it, with top notch workmanship and materials, you shouldnt have too much trouble getting at least most of your money back if you decide to sell, there always seems to be someone willing to pay good money for a well made and attractive knife, and again, even if you lose a few bucks, wasnt it still worth owning and enjoying the knife?

Once again, this is just one collector's opinion, and i've been wrong before. :)
 
You gotta respect Les' writing as he's "been there and done that."

I bought a bunch of knives solely upon other forum members' viewpoints that I've ultimately been unhappy with. And some I have been happy with.

People will always tend to be biased as to what they own. After all, they're thrilled with their possessions and want to share it with others. But a beginning knife collector may view the other's comments as legion and march right to the appropriate site and place an order.

I guess there is a price for learning, whether in the classroom or in life in general.

As to bang for the buck, what is really the "bang?"

Is it getting a knife for less than it's worth? Is it getting a knife that will be worth more later? Is it getting a knife that you truly use and rely upon every day? Is it getting a knife that you can put on display and have all your buddies "gee whiz" over? Is it buying a knife that you're so happy with, you dispense with looking at any others? Is it getting a knife that last for an exceptional number of years before replacement is necessary?
 
Very interesting topic. I have some homework to do, checking out names and so forth.

I am a carpenter/woodworker. I love tough custom folders and fixed blades. And due to the nature of my work, the blade edge gets nicked up occasionally. So I am in the market for customs $100-$400, something I won't feel bad about if I nick em up.
As for my opinion, I think Dozier, Obenauf, and Strider offers good value.

Have fun!
Barry H
 
For me right now I'd put my $$ on
Mike Irie
Kit Carson
JW Smith
Scott Cook
Good stuff from all with a greater nod to JW Smith, here is a guy that puts in hard work on knives in the $4,000 range and then takes all that knowledge and makes folders we mere mortals can afford as well, so you KNOW he doesn't ignore that knowledge but puts it into his lower end knives as well! So go for one of them if you can!

G2
 
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