Best Bivy for Winter Outings?

I've looked at a couple top-end backpacker's quilts with 850 down that run about $325 so I understand how high the pricing can go. In fact, I saw one fellow who uses that ultra hi-tech 0.35 oz./yd. sail material (cuben?) with superlofty down to produce a really thick 11 oz. quilt. Delicate, but warm.

The snowshoeing survival kit has a couple candles in it, so we're thinking alike there.

I agree on the weight thing: If it is too heavy, she won't carry it. An average kit that is carried is better than a superb one back in the car.

Thanks,

DancesWithKnives
 
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I too am grateful for all the insightful contributions!

Thanks,

DancesWithKnives
 
I've had good luck with a integral design salathe model. However, I've mainly used this CO, UT, WY, so it hasn't been overlay damp. Worked in NY and VT too.

I have slept out in the rain a few times an stayed dry, but it was not a torrential downpour.

I only have a synthetic 20 deg bag so it works fine for winter camping (snow cave/shelter) or in a tent to augment. (In a tent I leave it open to avoid trapped condensation.)

I've slept out in 0 deg weather with this combo, i.e. warm and dry enough. ymmv

Note - winter camping can be relentless if bad weather comes in. Weight should not be a concern for winter camping if in mtn, norther and/or snowy environments. The silk liners are nice for wimpier bags. A good thicker closed cell pad is mandatory. No need for a thermarest. I also bring an emergency blanket to put underneath the pads and bivy/bags now. ymmv depending on gear/climate, etc.
 
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Here is another idea. Use the AMK bivvy as a vapour liner and put it inside a small/compact sleeping bag. You will get the moisture issue, but the way a vapour barrier works is that it keeps that moisture close to your body and ensures maximum effectiveness of you bag. If it is below freezing and you are cool, then you aren't really going to be sweating that much anyway. For this reason, VB are mostly used well below freezing temperatures. If she wears polypropylene long underwear, that is often recommended for use with a VB.
 
Interesting ideas---the advice is appreciated.

This bivy would be only for unintentional overnighters so I'm looking for something light and compact---like around a pound total. Got to keep the overall weight and bulk of the survival kit down or it will end up staying in the trunk. Kind of a painful balancing act between what you'd really like to have in an emergency and what's actually going to get carried.

A fellow on one of my hunting forums mentioned that he has an Acteryx climbing pack that converts into an emergency bivy sack and foam ground pad. He didn't note the model and I have not yet looked at their website. However, it is an interesting way to squeeze an additional couple of functions out of your daypack.

Thanks again,

DancesWithKnives
 
Well if you're thinking "unplanned" bivy then going expensive on a bivy sack isn't the right choice. I've been eyeing the Adventure Medical Thermo-Lite 2:

http://www.adventuremedicalkits.com...me=Essentials&prodname=Thermo-Lite® 2.0 Bivvy

It's light, cheap, and the ratings online seem good. One has to keep in mind that a lightweight bivy isn't going to be robust like their $300 Bibler counterpart. You could "beef-up" seams with nylon ripstop tape etc. Basically you just want something that's waterproof and reflects heat and can get you through a night or two ... or will keep an injured mate warm until help arrives etc.

I have a Bibler Big Wall Bivy - it's light and compacts well, but it's pricey and too bulky for an emergency shelter.

There are several Arc'teryx climbing packs with "removable bivouac pads" like the Khamsin series, but not the actual sack itself. I've seen a few of these designs over the years from different manufacturers. You could always sew-on a bivy sleeve [h20-proof sil nylon] at the top of your pack that just folds inside the pack when not in use [that's basically what these designs were]. Personally though, I'd prefer a stand alone emergency bivy like the Thermo-Lite above. Tossing your feet in a pack would be a tight squeeze.
 
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The AMK is certainly the industry standard. My reservations come from reading accounts of serious condensation issues with that unit.

With regard to cost, the justification for a much more expensive backpacker's quilt or ultralight sleeping bag would be that it could be used for planned overnighters (or multi nighters) during the summer. During the winter it would be a piece of emergency gear that would be more breathable and provide substantially more insulation than the AMK, if needed for an unintended night out.

Thanks for discussing the AMK---always a good consideration.

DancesWithKnives
 
mtwarden said:
my secret weapon is a couple of small 8-10 hour candles, burned intermittently- I haven't tried it in a winter shelter, but was very pleasantly surprised on how much heat they added to debris shelter built last spring

My wife and I teach a winter backcountry class for a local college every other January. We spend 2-3 weeks in the Oregon Cascades with 8-10 students. Most of them have never camped, backpacked or pulled a loaded pulk with a 50# pack on. One of the skills we teach is shelter building. You'd be amazed at how much warmth these candles add to a snow cave/quinzee.

Once we did a training for nordic ski patrol that required us to sleep overnight, without a sleeping bag, using only what we carried in our patrol pack. Because of this, I now always carry 1 or 2 of these when venturing out.

Jay
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Some use their sil-nylon packs to stick their lower half in, and have a poncho overhead; coincidentally, often the ultralight-packs suspension/frame is a sleeping pad. Almost nothing extra. Over-sized pack-liners have found these uses as well, in foul conditions. Also good if a few too many are sharing space under a tarp.

You're also sticking part of your body in sil-nylon, so breathe-ability comes up again, maybe a vapor barrier. Considering it's a last-ditch maneuver, it could be worse. If your feet are in there to avoid mud etc., you might be wearing it on your back the next day, and your gear faces exposure. Better than nothing and easily done, but a bit confining (picky survivalists:D); if it is of interest, try sticking your feet and bag into a pack for your own take. With a daypack, there isn't much coverage, and if it's a backpacking pack, you'll likely have room for something more sufficient.

If it's not too much of a digression, I'll plug Tyvek, AKA poor man's gore-tex. Might be another option. Cheap and easy to find, maybe even free if you are/know a handyman, but there is the DIY aspect. Fresh, it flaps rather loud in the wind, could probably scare off a critter or wake up camp if ya shook it out, but that goes away the more beatup it gets or washing. Fairly durable, doubles as groundcloth, which is the only experience I have with it outdoors. Fold or roll for packing, can't really stuff into a sack like sil-nylon. Sil-nylon packs better, lighter, and more water-resistant; tyvek is durable, cheap, and more breathable while still being lightweight. Might not look the coolest, being wrapped in what looks like deli-paper or obviously scrounged building material, but at least you'd blend in with snow ;) or oil-pen in a Y, so it reads 'Homey Wrap'and it will be self-explanatory to local onlookers :D. Low-cost is a boon for a kit you might not use, or for making multiples.

Eccentric backpackers have made tyvek bivies weighing from 9-18oz, and it seems somewhat popular, enough that some make just about everything with it such as clothing articles. Things they seem to actually plan on using, and not JIC, so it shouldn't soak your bag. Bivy would be an easy DIY, just tape or glue, no sewing necessary.

Here's a pic of the AMK bivy, the S2S Reactor liner, an 8'x10' silnylon tarp, and a microfleece liner. Nalgene, Bic lighter, Vic Farmer, and broken tape-measure for size-reference. All on top of a sportsman's emergency blanket, which is my current preference. In terms of the elements, the sil tarp is not much larger/heavier (might not show well, but relatively flat in pic), but can provide some coverage for two or more, a place to comfortably weather a storm, or even carefully run a candle/stove, in contrast to a bivy. Over-sized for one person, but at least you won't have your feet sticking out
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steelheadr said:
mtwarden said:
my secret weapon is a couple of small 8-10 hour candles, burned intermittently- I haven't tried it in a winter shelter, but was very pleasantly surprised on how much heat they added to debris shelter built last spring

My wife and I teach a winter backcountry class for a local college every other January. We spend 2-3 weeks in the Oregon Cascades with 8-10 students. Most of them have never camped, backpacked or pulled a loaded pulk with a 50# pack on. One of the skills we teach is shelter building. You'd be amazed at how much warmth these candles add to a snow cave/quinzee.

Once we did a training for nordic ski patrol that required us to sleep overnight, without a sleeping bag, using only what we carried in our patrol pack. Because of this, I now always carry 1 or 2 of these when venturing out.

Jay
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excellent :) that's just what I wanted to hear

another option to consider is down pants- they pack up very small, can be used sitting around for lunch stops, etc - combined w/ a down jacket would give you decent insulation for an unexpected overnighter (in conjunction w/ a good shelter/AMK bivy)

if you look at my winter kit http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=703615 you'll see a pic of a very small ensolite pad- made by gossamer gear it's 1/8"- 20x60" it weighs a whopping 2 oz :D as you can see it packs up very small as well ( I have 12x20 in the pack sleeve and 28x20 rolled up)- insulation from the ground is as important as above

Mike
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Down pants are certainly an option. I have read about some economy-minded ultralighters buying the down long johns from Cabela's. At the upper end would be mountaineering down pants like those offered by www.featheredfriends.com and others.

With regard to packs and pads, I don't usually employ it as a daypack but my Go-Lite Gust pack has a closed cell foam pad as a backing and it would cover your lower legs if used as a bag. [Supposedly the Arcteryx pack will extend up to your armpits.]

I normally carry a closed cell pad but I like the size and weight of your Gossamer Gear model. I appreciate the reference to it.

Thanks again,

DancesWithKnives
 
DWK2 said:
I saw the Sea to Summit Reactor sleeping bag liner on Campmor's website. They claim it is breathable Thermo-Lite. As I recall, it's around 9 ounces and $50. I'm curious whether you've had any opportunities to test the Reactor out?
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Here's a couple of owner's reviews, and here's 24 more, plus some info on the 'Extreme' version of the Reactor.
 
mtwarden,

I liked your idea of the down pants because not only will they keep you warm in an overnight emergency, but if necessary you can wear them when walking out. I did a little research and discovered that Western Mountaineering, which makes the excellent and warm 12 oz. Flight Jacket that I normally carry, also makes some Flight Pants. The fellow at WM told me that they weigh around 8 oz. in my size and contain about 3 oz. of 850 down fill. They are obviously pretty light pants but look to be surprisingly lofty (which is certainly the case with my Flight Jacket).

The downside of the Flight Pants is that the "R" word on them is $175. Although they are about $140 more than the AMK Thermalite bivy, I'll bet they are warmer and free from condensation issues. They weigh only about an ounce more. Furthermore, they would get use in non-emergency situations, which helps justify the higher cost (says a guy with knives that cost several times that---as if I need to justify the cost of something I like). In any event, I appreciate the down pants recommendation and think I'll give them a try.

I appreciate everyone's input---there is a lot of great information in addition to what mtwarden recommended.

Thanks,

DancesWithKnives
 
I have 2 bivy bags. One for non planned bivouacs, and one for planned.
The first one is a simple Wafö bag with poor breathing capabilities, but it's lightweight and packs small.

The 2nd one is a Terra Nova Titan bag, which is actually one of the more expensive pieces of kit I use. This one is meant for planned bivouacs in cold conditions during winter mountaineering . After trying out a lot of bags, I ended up with this one. The main difference with other bags as that it's entirely made of goretex, and not only the top part of the bag, which enhances breathing capabilities enourmosly.
I use this in combination with a down, either a Yeti or a Western Mountaineering, bag and 2 mats of closed cellfoam. These bags will loose approx. 50 grams worth of insulation per night slept in them. Knowing this you can make a calculation of how many nights are feasible before considering taking a VBL.
It allows me to bivouac just about everywhere.
 
DWK2 said:
mtwarden,

I liked your idea of the down pants because not only will they keep you warm in an overnight emergency, but if necessary you can wear them when walking out. I did a little research and discovered that Western Mountaineering, which makes the excellent and warm 12 oz. Flight Jacket that I normally carry, also makes some Flight Pants. The fellow at WM told me that they weigh around 8 oz. in my size and contain about 3 oz. of 850 down fill. They are obviously pretty light pants but look to be surprisingly lofty (which is certainly the case with my Flight Jacket).

The downside of the Flight Pants is that the "R" word on them is $175. Although they are about $140 more than the AMK Thermalite bivy, I'll bet they are warmer and free from condensation issues. They weigh only about an ounce more. Furthermore, they would get use in non-emergency situations, which helps justify the higher cost (says a guy with knives that cost several times that---as if I need to justify the cost of something I like). In any event, I appreciate the down pants recommendation and think I'll give them a try.

I appreciate everyone's input---there is a lot of great information in addition to what mtwarden recommended.

Thanks,

DancesWithKnives
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that will be a nice match w/ the Flight Jacket- WM stuff is always expensive initially- it usually ends up being significantly cheaper in the long run :)

Martin do you have a link for the Wafo? never heard of it, I come up empty w/ a google search

These guys http://www.owareusa.com/ have some light bivies, also some really light tarps- they have a new cuben fiber tarp (that's a brown-ish color-not your normal white) that weighs 3.5 oz!!!!
 
You might try a fleece summer bag with a survival mylar sheet, if you fold the mylar over the fleece bag you get some ventilation to cut down on moisture, the fleece bags don't weigh much and cost about 15 bucks. This would be for an emergency only though.
 
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