best chef & paring knives

[McGill_strong]

Hi! I have about 2 years of serious cooking experience, and I own a set of Zwilling knives. Growing up, my family used Wusthof and Cutco (they still do).

I almost exclusively use the Zwilling 4-star 8” chef and the Zwilling 4-star 4” paring knife. [the 8” and 5” serrated knives are useful, but the 5.5” santoku has never left the block].

I want to buy 2 amazing knives: a chef knife and a paring/petty knife. Ones that will last 50 years (with care) and look fantastic. I’m not concerned about the price, only the quality. I know that at a certain point I’m paying for art, which is not my current intent.

What type of knives should I look at? And what about the Chinese-style and Japanese-style blades, vs European?

I will also read through other threads here and also see what knives the experts use (and filter out marketing).

I’m excited to engage with this community! Thanks

 

[Ourorboros]

Well any good knives should last 50 years with care, depending on use. A lot of the best blades don't look as pretty, but that can be balanced with a custom handle. Some can be polished out too.
Now styles of blade, first you need to know your usage style. A rock chopper would prefer a big belly. If you abuse a blade, European knives are better for you.
Then there is the question of sharpening - any blade will go dull with usage and dull is dull. The Japanese knives especially don't come as sharp as they can get. They expect the buyer to do the finish sharpening, though they have been sharpened.

So - Chinese, Japanese, and European blades.
The most well known Chinese knife would be the vegetable cleaver. This can come in a variety of thicknesses, but most are not made to deal with bone. They are thin blades with a forward balance, almost laser thin. The mechanics are different, but in the right hands it is a surprisingly versatile blade. This is blade for those who push cut or chop rather than rock choppers - though it's been done. The Japanese call it the Chuka-bocho - literally Chinese knife. A modern variation is the kiri cleaver, which clips off some spine to give a tip. It's basically a tall bunka.
The Japanese have a lot of blades, almost one for every usage and specialty. For a main knife, you're mostly looking at the gyuto, santoku, or kiritsuke.
Generally Japanese knives will be thinner than European knives and heat treated to a high hardness. So they are lighter and more nimble, but chip more with rough handling. In Japan blades are often sold by themselves, with handles bought separately so fit and finish with the blade aren't always perfect outside the name brands.
I'm only going to talk about the gyuto. It's the Japanese take on the French Chef's knife, though there are a variety of profiles. The average weight is about what the next size down of European knife is, even lighter. So a workhorse 240mm (9.4") gyuto is about 7 ounces, while an 8" German chef's knife is about 8 ounces. So people find them to be less fatiguing and more agile. I think being able to have a longer blade at a lighter weight makes a blade more versatile, as there are longer distinct sections of the flatter heel area, some belly to help with slicing, and the tip.
European knives are generally softer, thicker, and heavier. They stand up to abuse better but shouldn't be taken to as steep angle. If you find yourself regularly making loud contact with your cutting board, this is the blade for you. If you do light butchery, like with chicken, then go this way.

As for looks, often the best blades aren't the most polished. Damascus doesn't really improve the quality, so some of the best blades don't have it.
There are $1000+ knives and $150 knives that are very good, but what are you really looking for?

 

[McGill_strong]

O Ourorboros thank you for this! Your tone/honesty is what I was hoping for in feedback.

I'm looking for something 8-10" and versatile. I'm willing to commit 1 hour/week to maintenance maximum. Based on your advice and some reading I've done, I'm looking for either a French chef knife or gyuto (like Zwilling/Kramer 25cm or Miyabi Birchwood 9.5").

Regarding a paring or petty blade, what should I consider? The Zwilling/Kramer 13 cm utility seems versatile. What do you use?

 

[jp9mm]

I've been using a Santoku for my general vegetable prep for the past 10 years and recently bought a more traditional chef knife.
I find it hard to get away from the santoku for the long straight edge seems to do more work easier, especially when doing stuff like a fine chop on garlic.

 

[Eli Chaps]

The Yaxell/Apogee Culinary line with BD1N are very nice. I have the Dragon Fire 8" gyuto and like it very much. The steel is excellent, very easy to maintain but with good hardness that is pretty tough and not chippy.

At 2.5mm, the Dragon Fire is thinner than the standard offering. Just something to toss in for consideration.

 

[Ourorboros]

Well Kramers, Miyabi Birchwood, and Sabatiers are all different beasts.
By Zwilling/Kramer I assume you don't mean the Meiji. To me it's the ultimate Western chef's knife (or at least the carbon steel one is) - big and heavy. Very nice, not made for push cutters and choppers. The weight distribution means the tip is surprisingly agile. It's almost like a mutant honesuki in that way.
A French chef's knife - the K Sabatier is the best remaining company in Thiers IIRC - can rock chop, but not as high as a Kramer. Not a real issue. You can glide cut - essentially an elongated push cut with ease too. It isn't going to be as nicely finished as the other two. This will have the worse edge retention but sharpen the easiest.
The Miyabi Birchwood is very nice - a high level of fit and finish. The weight puts it at a workhorse gyuto. A versatile profile, but again no rock chopping very tall things. Agile and probably the best edge retention of the three, but SG2 will take longer to sharpen. It won't be bad, it won't take an hour if you didn't let it get dull.
With the Birchwood series you will need to oil the handle - it comes unfinished and it isn't a naturally water resistant wood. In my eyes, the most beautiful of the three.

All should take screaming sharp edges.

For a petty knife, I use a Tojiro 150mm. For J-knife users, the two types of petty knife are "mini-gyuto" which are taller and utility type blades. That's the way I went. It depends on your style and usage.
I prefer a longer blade. I'm not a badass with a knife, but for me, it's a paring knife (3-3.5 inches) or a 6" petty knife. The stuff in between doesn't suit me. With a 6" (150mm) I can take apart chicken, trim meat, section ribs, etc. Actually I almost never use paring knives, though I have a few. But I've known people who love 4" knives which are in my no-man's-land.
I put more money into main knives - gyutos, nakiris, Chinese Cleavers, than anything else. I just get more benefit from the quality there. There are better petty knives and Tojiro can be a bit off here and there with the F&F. But the blade quality is there and that was all I cared about.

That is one of the things to balance - fit and finish or quality of blade for the money. For people who buy (a lot) from places like Japanese Knife Imports or Chef Knives to Go, they value the blade they get at a price point. And in a pinch grip a perfectly fitted ferrule isn't so meaningful.
But then again, those guys will have several $300+ knives at a time.

 

[Ourorboros]

I should say that philosophically, I believe that it's better to get the right profile knife for your mechanics than the highest quality knife - within a certain range of quality.
It's can be frustrating to use a tool that doesn't work the way you do. So for me, I'd prefer the Miyabi or Sabatier. The continuous curve of the Kramer doesn't work as well for me, which is why I never bought one.
However, I can ultimately change my mechanics and the quality differences between the Kramer and say a "forged" knife from a big box store are huge. No way am I choosing the other knife just because the profile works better for me. I'd rather get used to putting in some more wrist action in my cutting.
So I won't say that brands don't matter, but beyond a certain point of quality I don't really consider it.

 

[Eli Chaps]

I should say that philosophically, I believe that it's better to get the right profile knife for your mechanics than the highest quality knife - within a certain range of quality.
It's can be frustrating to use a tool that doesn't work the way you do. So for me, I'd prefer the Miyabi or Sabatier. The continuous curve of the Kramer doesn't work as well for me, which is why I never bought one.
However, I can ultimately change my mechanics and the quality differences between the Kramer and say a "forged" knife from a big box store are huge. No way am I choosing the other knife just because the profile works better for me. I'd rather get used to putting in some more wrist action in my cutting.
So I won't say that brands don't matter, but beyond a certain point of quality I don't really consider it.

This is a very good point and the reality is, you will likely find yourself buying more than one knife before you find the one that suits you best. While I very much like the steel and quality of my Yaxell, after months of use I came to realize that I prefer a western profile. It isn't that the slimmer gyuto style is bad in anyway and it surely has its positives. It is just that for me, I prefer the western style. But, I had to learn that through significant use and critical consideration.

 

[marchone]

There are a lot of different opinions on kitchen knives in these pages. Often from knife makers themselves. I spent three decades in high end kitchens. I tried every traditional style that exists and own many Japanese and Chinese knives. Japanese knives are for the most part, specialized slicers. Although all useful I prefer Western style. A proper French Chef's knife is a versatile tool. My go to everyday work knife was a Wusthof 4584. It’s the extra wide 10-inch Classic model. 10-inch or larger Chef's knives are meant to cover a standard cutting board well. 8-inch knives are for home cooks.

Paring knives always changed but that Wusthof was the work horse. I still have a couple, plus the lighter version 4582 I used at home.

The bolster is the most debated feature. You either love it or hate it. Every knife maker I’ve spoken to about hates it because it makes it difficult to sharpen the full length of the cutting edge. I love it for its intrinsic strength and the ability to use it as a light cleaver. My heavy Wusthof easily goes through chicken, lamb and baby back ribs and the like. I wouldn’t want to chip an expensive Kramer doing that.

Now retired, I’m looking at finding a nicer one I wouldn’t have abused at work. Perceval has a forged model that looks pretty good for about $800 in Arizona Ironwood.

I recently had a beautiful paring knife made by @Hengelo_77 He's also making a 6-inch utility knife for me. Both in Olive wood.

 

[McGill_strong]

I've been using a Santoku for my general vegetable prep for the past 10 years and recently bought a more traditional chef knife.
I find it hard to get away from the santoku for the long straight edge seems to do more work easier, especially when doing stuff like a fine chop on garlic.

I see! Thanks for the advice. The Santoku seems like a must-have in a kitchen collection. Which do you encore using more as a "do all" between your Santoku and traditional? Have you tried the Nakiri style for your vegetable prep, and how it compares? I'm currently looking for a single do-all knife because I will have to move in ~2-3 years time. Once I'm more stable I will definitely explore the specialized knives!

 

[McGill_strong]

There are a lot of different opinions on kitchen knives in these pages. Often from knife makers themselves. I spent three decades in high end kitchens. I tried every traditional style that exists and own many Japanese and Chinese knives. Japanese knives are for the most part, specialized slicers. Although all useful I prefer Western style. A proper French Chef's knife is a versatile tool. My go to everyday work knife was a Wusthof 4584. It’s the extra wide 10-inch Classic model. 10-inch or larger Chef's knives are meant to cover a standard cutting board well. 8-inch knives are for home cooks.

Paring knives always changed but that Wusthof was the work horse. I still have a couple, plus the lighter version 4582 I used at home.

The bolster is the most debated feature. You either love it or hate it. Every knife maker I’ve spoken to about hates it because it makes it difficult to sharpen the full length of the cutting edge. I love it for its intrinsic strength and the ability to use it as a light cleaver. My heavy Wusthof easily goes through chicken, lamb and baby back ribs and the like. I wouldn’t want to chip an expensive Kramer doing that.

Now retired, I’m looking at finding a nicer one I wouldn’t have abused at work. Perceval has a forged model that looks pretty good for about $800 in Arizona Ironwood.

I recently had a beautiful paring knife made by @Hengelo_77 He's also making a 6-inch utility knife for me. Both in Olive wood.

Thank you for your advice and experience!

The Wusthof 4584 appears to have a similar profile to the one I'm currently using (entry-level Zwilling 8"), only better made/professional grade. Your paring knife and that 27 cm Perceval chef knife look like masterpieces.

 

[marchone]

There are a lot of custom makers here. But I don’t know of one that will make a forged bolster. Maybe this thread will get someone to post.

 

[Ourorboros]

But, I had to learn that through significant use and critical consideration.

Learning can be an expensive proposition. At least people with one hobby don't have to go through the process and the pile of stuff so many times.
But I did enjoy it.

 

[Ourorboros]

At the risk of dominating this thread:
It kind of depends on what you prefer for a tip. A banno bunka, santoku, kiri cleaver, and kiritsuke have more of a pronounced tip than a nakiri or Chinese vegetable cleaver (Chuka-bocho to the Japanese. However the latter two can do the crosswise cuts through an onion you are dicing just fine. And how much tip work do you really do with your larger knives anyways?
Obviously the weigh distribution means the first four knives I named also have less of a forward balance but your grip point can alter that too.
The santoku is perhaps the hardest one to categorize - while all have a little curve to them, westernized santokus have a more pronounced belly in the front, giving you less chopping length.
All favor push cutting or chopping, though you can slice smaller things with them. If you like a larger flat spot, these are the knives for you.
There are gyutos with large flat spots as well, though you may be leaving the name brands and going to Japanese smiths. But if you were looking at Kramer and Miyabi Birchwood, then the cost is quite reasonable.

I use a Chinese Vegetable Cleaver or nakiri all the time with vegetables and boneless meats. The differences are in height and weight. Individual smiths or brands will have different spine thicknesses and tapers as well. They can be laser thin or be thick enough to wedge.
I tend to choose gyuto or a cleaver/nakiri (the Japanese say their nakiri is the small brother to the Chinese cleaver) and not use a bunka, santoku, kiritsuke, or kiri cleaver. I'm all in or all out - if I thought I needed a tip I would have used a gyuto, but that's me.

 

[McGill_strong]

Well Kramers, Miyabi Birchwood, and Sabatiers are all different beasts.
By Zwilling/Kramer I assume you don't mean the Meiji. To me it's the ultimate Western chef's knife (or at least the carbon steel one is) - big and heavy. Very nice, not made for push cutters and choppers. The weight distribution means the tip is surprisingly agile. It's almost like a mutant honesuki in that way.
A French chef's knife - the K Sabatier is the best remaining company in Thiers IIRC - can rock chop, but not as high as a Kramer. Not a real issue. You can glide cut - essentially an elongated push cut with ease too. It isn't going to be as nicely finished as the other two. This will have the worse edge retention but sharpen the easiest.
The Miyabi Birchwood is very nice - a high level of fit and finish. The weight puts it at a workhorse gyuto. A versatile profile, but again no rock chopping very tall things. Agile and probably the best edge retention of the three, but SG2 will take longer to sharpen. It won't be bad, it won't take an hour if you didn't let it get dull.
With the Birchwood series you will need to oil the handle - it comes unfinished and it isn't a naturally water resistant wood. In my eyes, the most beautiful of the three.

All should take screaming sharp edges.

For a petty knife, I use a Tojiro 150mm. For J-knife users, the two types of petty knife are "mini-gyuto" which are taller and utility type blades. That's the way I went. It depends on your style and usage.
I prefer a longer blade. I'm not a badass with a knife, but for me, it's a paring knife (3-3.5 inches) or a 6" petty knife. The stuff in between doesn't suit me. With a 6" (150mm) I can take apart chicken, trim meat, section ribs, etc. Actually I almost never use paring knives, though I have a few. But I've known people who love 4" knives which are in my no-man's-land.
I put more money into main knives - gyutos, nakiris, Chinese Cleavers, than anything else. I just get more benefit from the quality there. There are better petty knives and Tojiro can be a bit off here and there with the F&F. But the blade quality is there and that was all I cared about.

That is one of the things to balance - fit and finish or quality of blade for the money. For people who buy (a lot) from places like Japanese Knife Imports or Chef Knives to Go, they value the blade they get at a price point. And in a pinch grip a perfectly fitted ferrule isn't so meaningful.
But then again, those guys will have several $300+ knives at a time.

Yes I was specifically talking about the Zwilling/Kramer 10" carbon. My current set is all stainless and when I move in 2-3 years, it won't be coming with me - the 2 carbon steel knives I will buy soon will be. I want patina and reactivity, and I want the steel to hold sharpness. When I'm in a kitchen with more space, I will buy specialized knives - nakiris/cleavers/slicers. I find myself currently doing everything with one knife, and your comment about the Kramer shape struck a chord with me. My Zwilling knife is similar (slight continuous curve), and while dicing and cross-chopping are very easy, slicing (pulling/pushing) and rock-chopping feel limited.

And to your most recent post - I now have a plan: I'm going to wait this pandemic out, and when I can visit a local knife shop, I'll check a few styles out: gyuto, French, Western. I simply don't have enough experience with these other styles to judge if they work for me or not.

I have really enjoyed reading your insight!

 

[Ourorboros]

Thank-you.
But do keep that Zwilling. It's good to have a beater. Thinner, harder steels are also more brittle. If you find yourself wanting to cut a winter squash and it rolls, it may take some blade with it.
Also if you break up your own chicken, the softer steel of the Zwilling is fine for the back.
And though people say to never cut frozen meats, it happens.

 

[scott kozub]

I have made a whack of nikiris in they are wonderful for vegetables but not very versatile. There are plenty of guys in the makers forum that do integral bolsters and will make you a one off custom. You get the advantage of thin geometry, great steel of your choice and heat treated and tailored for your desired hardness with endless options if you go custom. I'm a stock removal guy so I can't help you with integral bolsters but there's a great group of very friendly makers there. Here some examples of my work to get you thinking about the possibilities.

 

[scott kozub]

A great stainless steel in the kitchen is AEB-L. It is extremely tough and doesn't form large carbides so it can be sharpened nearly as keen as carbon steel. The toughness of this steels allows a maker to run it hard and thin without the edge being chippy. Its also an inexpensive steel because it's used for razor blades so the economies of scale are much greater than any other knife steel. You'll likely have to go custom to find it though. Below is a testing video I did on a Nikiri (before mounting the handle). This blade is just 0.002" thick behind the edge heat treated to 62HRC. I eventually chopped through the entire 2x4 with no chipping or rolling damage. Steels that form larger carbides will excel at edge retention but won't get as sharp and you risk carbide tear out at thin geometries. This knife is the 2nd picture above.

Every steel will have advantages and disadvantages. Depending on the use, most makers will vary the hardness and edge geometry to get the optimal performance. One thing with most production knives is that they are usually a couple points low on the optimal hardness and thick behind the edge. Its done this way so they don't have to worry about warranty claims for chippy knives but there is performance left on the table. To assume that a harder knife is a chippier knife is a misnomer. AEB-L at 62 HRC will be noticeably tougher than CPM S35VN at 59 HRC but the S35VN will have better edge retention even at the lower hardness. Seems counter intuitive. Every steel is different so you have to make sure the hardness is matched to the geometry to get the optimal performance. Don't just buy a blade thinking a higher HRC number is better.

https://www.instagram.com/p/B8mugvdHcBR/

 

[rc4u12]

boy i use my mini santuku always and my granddaughter also. try it you'll like it.. perfect for peppers n celery ect. for me pairing is not slicing like peeling n cutting apples