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Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Corduroy, Im not sure what your point is...
I'm laughing even harder now! I just looked at the other "equipment" advertised at this site: clothes, weapons, and paraphernalia from movies like "Aliens" and "Judge Dredd" These knives fit right in.
-Corduroy
I dont think collecting movie props is any more funny than collecting knives. to each his own.
As to the knives, Im curious as to why no one brings up material. I've done some research; THe Specwar is made of the highest quality steel used in production knives, ATS-34. and titanium coating is known to hold an edge for a much longer period of time. And whats the story with the SEALs anyway? It seems like every combat knife is advertised as being somehow connected with them. Thanks for all the info
[This message has been edited by auction (edited 02 July 1999).]
I'm laughing even harder now! I just looked at the other "equipment" advertised at this site: clothes, weapons, and paraphernalia from movies like "Aliens" and "Judge Dredd" These knives fit right in.
-Corduroy
I dont think collecting movie props is any more funny than collecting knives. to each his own.
As to the knives, Im curious as to why no one brings up material. I've done some research; THe Specwar is made of the highest quality steel used in production knives, ATS-34. and titanium coating is known to hold an edge for a much longer period of time. And whats the story with the SEALs anyway? It seems like every combat knife is advertised as being somehow connected with them. Thanks for all the info
[This message has been edited by auction (edited 02 July 1999).]
- Joined
- Oct 3, 1998
- Messages
- 4,842
audition -- No offense, but if you think ATS-34 if the highest quality steel used in production knives, you should be patient and soak in whatever you can here. I feel ATS-34 was one of the best stainless steels 5 years ago or so (although many people don't even believe that). It's been surpassed since then, easily.
I won't speak for cord, but from reading his note, I don't think he was laughing at collecting movie props per se. In the knife collecting/using field, like any other field, you notice certain trends. Often, the trends start getting silly. Witness the celebration of life that started the disco craze, to its downfall with "Disco Duck". In the knife field there's a tactical craze, and there's a certain Disco Duckishness about going all-style no-function, putting only the mean-looking tactical knives with movie props meant to bring out the Walter Mitty in everybody. Not that there's anything wrong that, I myself occasionally putter about the garage with my AFCK pretending to be a SEAL. But does the Disco Duck analogy make sense now?
Joe
[This message has been edited by Joe Talmadge (edited 02 July 1999).]
I won't speak for cord, but from reading his note, I don't think he was laughing at collecting movie props per se. In the knife collecting/using field, like any other field, you notice certain trends. Often, the trends start getting silly. Witness the celebration of life that started the disco craze, to its downfall with "Disco Duck". In the knife field there's a tactical craze, and there's a certain Disco Duckishness about going all-style no-function, putting only the mean-looking tactical knives with movie props meant to bring out the Walter Mitty in everybody. Not that there's anything wrong that, I myself occasionally putter about the garage with my AFCK pretending to be a SEAL. But does the Disco Duck analogy make sense now?
Joe
[This message has been edited by Joe Talmadge (edited 02 July 1999).]
Mr. Talmadge,
I appreciate your explanation and am still laughing at your excellent analogy, but I do feel I was out-of-line in criticizing the knives just for the site that featured them. It displays many items that are non-functional but very "cool-looking" and I have no problem with folks wanting to collect that sort of thing. I think these knives are definitely "cool-looking" and definitely above non-functional, however, though very far from my idea of a good, function-oriented design. They do not deserve to be considered mere "props," though I would not personally nominate them for any knife awards.
I will say that no matter what the Specwar was made of - 420V, Talonite, whatever - a flat chisel grind at nearly a 45-degree angle that covers only about 1/5 of the blade's width is terrible blade geometry, not a good design for cutting anything a knife might encounter. Such an edge is suitable only for metalworking tools that are firmly fixed and have massive horsepower behind them. A knife is also the worst prybar you will ever own, even that knife. That it was awarded knife-of-the-year is one of the reasons I no longer read Blade or other knife magazines. Good materials are no substitute for bad blade geometry.
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-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
[This message has been edited by Corduroy (edited 03 July 1999).]
I appreciate your explanation and am still laughing at your excellent analogy, but I do feel I was out-of-line in criticizing the knives just for the site that featured them. It displays many items that are non-functional but very "cool-looking" and I have no problem with folks wanting to collect that sort of thing. I think these knives are definitely "cool-looking" and definitely above non-functional, however, though very far from my idea of a good, function-oriented design. They do not deserve to be considered mere "props," though I would not personally nominate them for any knife awards.
I will say that no matter what the Specwar was made of - 420V, Talonite, whatever - a flat chisel grind at nearly a 45-degree angle that covers only about 1/5 of the blade's width is terrible blade geometry, not a good design for cutting anything a knife might encounter. Such an edge is suitable only for metalworking tools that are firmly fixed and have massive horsepower behind them. A knife is also the worst prybar you will ever own, even that knife. That it was awarded knife-of-the-year is one of the reasons I no longer read Blade or other knife magazines. Good materials are no substitute for bad blade geometry.
------------------
-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
[This message has been edited by Corduroy (edited 03 July 1999).]
- Joined
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Joe,
In the same price range, what do you consider to be a better stainless steel in the production arena?
BG42? 154-CM? VG10? 440V? ATS-55?
They all have their strengths and weakness,
IMHO the only one with a measureable advantage over ATS-34 for General Utility use is BG-42.
154-CM is so close the differences are minor and imperceptible, 440V seemingly lacks the toughness for a very fine "pocket scalpel" edge.
BG42 shows some real advantages, but it is substantially more $$$ and not available in sizes that allow easy mass production. It is still in the realm of the custom maker or semi-custom shop.
For a general purpose knife where "stainless"
steel is a design parameter, ATS-34 is not a BAD choice, in fact it is definately one of the top stainless steels used in the industry.
Is it the "best"? That all depends on your parameters. I would much rather have a knife crafted from ATS-34 with superb edge geometry (flat, thin), than a knife made of 440V, 420V, 3V, etc that has poor edge geometry.
Maybe there is a reason most 440V knives have poor geometry...
PS-To all the chisel naysayers. I once poo-pooed the chisel, until I tried one done right. The Spec-Wars are not done right.
RJ Martin's, Steve Ryan's, and Bladerigger's are. I do not believe they make the best all-around blade shape-BUT, in a 4-5" knife, the slicing, slashing, and pure ferocity of a properly, zero-ground, 12-15 thousandths thick tool steel chisel is frightening.
Personally I prefer A2 (or the like),flat ground, double beveled with a recurve---- but thats a whole different kettle of fish....
In the same price range, what do you consider to be a better stainless steel in the production arena?
BG42? 154-CM? VG10? 440V? ATS-55?
They all have their strengths and weakness,
IMHO the only one with a measureable advantage over ATS-34 for General Utility use is BG-42.
154-CM is so close the differences are minor and imperceptible, 440V seemingly lacks the toughness for a very fine "pocket scalpel" edge.
BG42 shows some real advantages, but it is substantially more $$$ and not available in sizes that allow easy mass production. It is still in the realm of the custom maker or semi-custom shop.
For a general purpose knife where "stainless"
steel is a design parameter, ATS-34 is not a BAD choice, in fact it is definately one of the top stainless steels used in the industry.
Is it the "best"? That all depends on your parameters. I would much rather have a knife crafted from ATS-34 with superb edge geometry (flat, thin), than a knife made of 440V, 420V, 3V, etc that has poor edge geometry.
Maybe there is a reason most 440V knives have poor geometry...
PS-To all the chisel naysayers. I once poo-pooed the chisel, until I tried one done right. The Spec-Wars are not done right.
RJ Martin's, Steve Ryan's, and Bladerigger's are. I do not believe they make the best all-around blade shape-BUT, in a 4-5" knife, the slicing, slashing, and pure ferocity of a properly, zero-ground, 12-15 thousandths thick tool steel chisel is frightening.
Personally I prefer A2 (or the like),flat ground, double beveled with a recurve---- but thats a whole different kettle of fish....
- Joined
- May 2, 1999
- Messages
- 1,206
Wow! That's a lot of posts in a short time. I'll try to cover everything, but since I can't actualy see the thread while I write, actualy I missed something last time;
Grinds that only go 1/3 up to the spine suck because that means you have a very fat wedge to push through what you're cutting. The further back the grind goes, the easier it cuts through or slices things. There are trade-offs, but grinds as a general rule should go at least half way to the spine.
Okay, so chisel ground edges suck at slicing but are real great at chopping(debatable), so what you're saying is that the ultimate combat knife should be a one-trick pony?
If these knives are backed/designed/marketed by Special Operations Seal Rangers involved in lethal blackops behind enemy lines, it's for the same reason basketball players sell shoes; CA$H. Also, keep in mind that modern military forces are gun-and-bomb oriented. They aren't really knife specialists. How many times have these threads come up and soldiers bring up that they don't use the knives for anything but opening MRE's? As I've said before, just because you excel in one area of combat or survival doesn't mean you excel at all. It doesn't take a geologist to shovel dirt.
Don't put too much stock in materials. You can use good materials to make lame things. I'm sure there was perfectly good cast iron and rubber used in the construction of the Yugo. Not to mention all the fine leather upolstery in sport futility vehicles.
Yeah, you can make damn near anything work if you have to, but if a Pakastani wonder can be pressed into service in dire need, does that make it the ultimate combat knife? The whole "ultimate" thing means they have to be held to a hire standard. Besides, I ain't about to shuck out that kind of dough for a knife that can be *made* to work.
As for my suggesting what Mr. Keating thinks of the SpecWar, that's because I HAVE seen these things sold as fighters, or a knife suitable for use as a weapon. Sure you can kill somebody with anything, even toilet paper, but that doesn't mean it's well suited to that use. Not that I want to kill anyone, abusers of women and children excluded, let's lynch them. Anyway, Keating studies the most varied forms of knife combatives I'm aware of in any well-known instructor, and is proficient in all. ComTech teaches some weird/unusual weapons. If this thing had any such redeaming features, he'd have ferreted them out.
I'm not saying these things are fragile, they are basicaly ingots, so they are probably a little more durable than a knife. Then again, does that matter? Do you have more use of a strong knife or indestructable ingot? If I want something to smash with, I'll get a rock or something. But, as I pointed out, the blade cutouts are completely useless for anything except decoration(but they WOULD facilitate wall mounting by hammering nails through them...), and unneccesarily weaken the blade. Again, I don't think that weakening a blade for asthectic value is on the list of criteria for a combat knife.
I'm the first to admit the the Project's have their failings. I know, I use them hard. Thing is, they do a lot as well or better than many knives. Nearly any good knife would have it up on these in all areas. Disco Duck all the way...
I am a butthead. My behavior should not be emulated or aproved of. If I was capable of expressing myself in a more calm and profesional manner, that would be the way to go. I stand by what I say, but I know I don't come off well, and while these sorts of "knives" look really dumb to me, I am not looking to make any enemies here or tell off any forum readers. I don't really blame the makers, they're just making money. I believe in Capitalism. It's all that stands between us and socialism, I just wish they wouldn't hype their product the way the do. Some of those claims are silly. The "knives" themselves are sillier. I don't care who says they're great. I ain't so blind I can't see...
Grinds that only go 1/3 up to the spine suck because that means you have a very fat wedge to push through what you're cutting. The further back the grind goes, the easier it cuts through or slices things. There are trade-offs, but grinds as a general rule should go at least half way to the spine.
Okay, so chisel ground edges suck at slicing but are real great at chopping(debatable), so what you're saying is that the ultimate combat knife should be a one-trick pony?
If these knives are backed/designed/marketed by Special Operations Seal Rangers involved in lethal blackops behind enemy lines, it's for the same reason basketball players sell shoes; CA$H. Also, keep in mind that modern military forces are gun-and-bomb oriented. They aren't really knife specialists. How many times have these threads come up and soldiers bring up that they don't use the knives for anything but opening MRE's? As I've said before, just because you excel in one area of combat or survival doesn't mean you excel at all. It doesn't take a geologist to shovel dirt.
Don't put too much stock in materials. You can use good materials to make lame things. I'm sure there was perfectly good cast iron and rubber used in the construction of the Yugo. Not to mention all the fine leather upolstery in sport futility vehicles.
Yeah, you can make damn near anything work if you have to, but if a Pakastani wonder can be pressed into service in dire need, does that make it the ultimate combat knife? The whole "ultimate" thing means they have to be held to a hire standard. Besides, I ain't about to shuck out that kind of dough for a knife that can be *made* to work.
As for my suggesting what Mr. Keating thinks of the SpecWar, that's because I HAVE seen these things sold as fighters, or a knife suitable for use as a weapon. Sure you can kill somebody with anything, even toilet paper, but that doesn't mean it's well suited to that use. Not that I want to kill anyone, abusers of women and children excluded, let's lynch them. Anyway, Keating studies the most varied forms of knife combatives I'm aware of in any well-known instructor, and is proficient in all. ComTech teaches some weird/unusual weapons. If this thing had any such redeaming features, he'd have ferreted them out.
I'm not saying these things are fragile, they are basicaly ingots, so they are probably a little more durable than a knife. Then again, does that matter? Do you have more use of a strong knife or indestructable ingot? If I want something to smash with, I'll get a rock or something. But, as I pointed out, the blade cutouts are completely useless for anything except decoration(but they WOULD facilitate wall mounting by hammering nails through them...), and unneccesarily weaken the blade. Again, I don't think that weakening a blade for asthectic value is on the list of criteria for a combat knife.
I'm the first to admit the the Project's have their failings. I know, I use them hard. Thing is, they do a lot as well or better than many knives. Nearly any good knife would have it up on these in all areas. Disco Duck all the way...
I am a butthead. My behavior should not be emulated or aproved of. If I was capable of expressing myself in a more calm and profesional manner, that would be the way to go. I stand by what I say, but I know I don't come off well, and while these sorts of "knives" look really dumb to me, I am not looking to make any enemies here or tell off any forum readers. I don't really blame the makers, they're just making money. I believe in Capitalism. It's all that stands between us and socialism, I just wish they wouldn't hype their product the way the do. Some of those claims are silly. The "knives" themselves are sillier. I don't care who says they're great. I ain't so blind I can't see...
I agree that the knives (and other items) were chosen primarily for aesthetic reasons, which is fine. And I don't disagree that Knife magazines tend to be biased. But who isnt?
Which brings me to the question..Are there any combat/fighting knives that are both functional and aesthetically pleasing?
I do not want a goofy shiny bowie-looking thing. Any suggestions? Maybe I'll check out what knife the SEALs are currently issued... Or maybe I will just get a Glock17.
and to Joe Tailmadge, if you arent too busy puttering around your garage or yammering on about ducks, why dont you name all those steels that have "easily surpassed" ATS-34? (and your "sources")
[This message has been edited by auction (edited 03 July 1999).]
Which brings me to the question..Are there any combat/fighting knives that are both functional and aesthetically pleasing?
I do not want a goofy shiny bowie-looking thing. Any suggestions? Maybe I'll check out what knife the SEALs are currently issued... Or maybe I will just get a Glock17.
and to Joe Tailmadge, if you arent too busy puttering around your garage or yammering on about ducks, why dont you name all those steels that have "easily surpassed" ATS-34? (and your "sources")
[This message has been edited by auction (edited 03 July 1999).]
- Joined
- May 2, 1999
- Messages
- 1,206
Yes, a fighting or combat or survival knife can be attractive. Just not at the expense of utility. For civilian use, there's nothing wrong with a shiny bowie, unless you hunt with a knife like I do and then you want a matte finish. I think the Project 1 has a certain appeal to it, and it could fit in either the survival or combat knife category. Oh yeah, it was designed by a soldier too.
What's up with the SEAL fetish these days? A decade or two ago it was ninjas. I think there are actualy a good deal more of us who are just groupies then serious, is knifesmen the word? I can't wait to see what's next, pizza delivery boys?
Auction, that's not aimed at you. I'm pretty sure you comment was in jest. I don't think SEALS get issued knives. Marines don't get issued Kabar's either. Well, not exactly true, but they're the last things you'll ever be issued, and many never get one. I've never been a SEAL or Marine, I'm going what I've heard from real Marines. Everybody's a bloddy SEAL these days. For a small and elite buncha guys, there sure is a lot of them out there... Ever notice that EVERYBODY supplies their official equipment? How much gear do these guys pack?
Maybe that's why SEAL's are so tough, what with all these manufacturers making them carry all this crap. Builds strong bones and healthy bodies. Whitens teeth too.
What's up with the SEAL fetish these days? A decade or two ago it was ninjas. I think there are actualy a good deal more of us who are just groupies then serious, is knifesmen the word? I can't wait to see what's next, pizza delivery boys?
Auction, that's not aimed at you. I'm pretty sure you comment was in jest. I don't think SEALS get issued knives. Marines don't get issued Kabar's either. Well, not exactly true, but they're the last things you'll ever be issued, and many never get one. I've never been a SEAL or Marine, I'm going what I've heard from real Marines. Everybody's a bloddy SEAL these days. For a small and elite buncha guys, there sure is a lot of them out there... Ever notice that EVERYBODY supplies their official equipment? How much gear do these guys pack?
Maybe that's why SEAL's are so tough, what with all these manufacturers making them carry all this crap. Builds strong bones and healthy bodies. Whitens teeth too.
- Joined
- Jun 15, 1999
- Messages
- 981
You call yourself a butthead snickersnee, but I find myself going "wonder what snickersnee posted now" a lot.
"Everybody's a bloddy SEAL these days. For a small and elite buncha guys, there sure is a lot of them out there... Ever notice that EVERYBODY supplies their official equipment? How much gear do these guys pack? Maybe that's why SEAL's are so tough, what with all these manufacturers making them carry all this crap. Builds strong bones and healthy bodies. Whitens teeth too."
hahaha....
"Everybody's a bloddy SEAL these days. For a small and elite buncha guys, there sure is a lot of them out there... Ever notice that EVERYBODY supplies their official equipment? How much gear do these guys pack? Maybe that's why SEAL's are so tough, what with all these manufacturers making them carry all this crap. Builds strong bones and healthy bodies. Whitens teeth too."
hahaha....
Auction,
I'm not saying that knife magazines are "biased." I'm saying that they are paid off. The advertising dollar of manufacturers and distributors decides what they review, what they say about it, and what awards it gets. I held Blade and Tactical Knives subscriptions for several years, and have bought Knives Illustrated from news-stands. I am disgusted with all of them. In an email I complained to Bud Lang, EIC of KI, that they had reviewed the Junglee Shenzai, an AFCK rip-off. He replied that he had complained to Junglee / Guttman that several of their pieces were stolen designs, but that KI needed their advertisements to stay running. That was the last knife magazine I purchased.
You would like a combat piece that is also beautiful? Go to the other "Combat Knives" thread and check out the Brend knife pictured. Not only do several folks swear by it, but it is an aesthetic masterpiece. Walter Brend is one of the most skilled blade-grinders working anywhere, with an amazing sense of curves and flow. Of pieces I have seen in pictures or in person, only Jim Siska's work compares to his for perfect, sinuous grinds.
Snickersnee,
You're my favorite "butthead." I'm curious if I could send you something and convince you to give the Project a rest for a little bit. I'll drop you an email after I get done in my shop this holiday weekend. I'm going from "I used to make knives" back to full-swing, thanks to the enthusiasm of folks here at Bladeforums. Still seeing how much I can fit in around school.
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-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
I'm not saying that knife magazines are "biased." I'm saying that they are paid off. The advertising dollar of manufacturers and distributors decides what they review, what they say about it, and what awards it gets. I held Blade and Tactical Knives subscriptions for several years, and have bought Knives Illustrated from news-stands. I am disgusted with all of them. In an email I complained to Bud Lang, EIC of KI, that they had reviewed the Junglee Shenzai, an AFCK rip-off. He replied that he had complained to Junglee / Guttman that several of their pieces were stolen designs, but that KI needed their advertisements to stay running. That was the last knife magazine I purchased.
You would like a combat piece that is also beautiful? Go to the other "Combat Knives" thread and check out the Brend knife pictured. Not only do several folks swear by it, but it is an aesthetic masterpiece. Walter Brend is one of the most skilled blade-grinders working anywhere, with an amazing sense of curves and flow. Of pieces I have seen in pictures or in person, only Jim Siska's work compares to his for perfect, sinuous grinds.
Snickersnee,
You're my favorite "butthead." I'm curious if I could send you something and convince you to give the Project a rest for a little bit. I'll drop you an email after I get done in my shop this holiday weekend. I'm going from "I used to make knives" back to full-swing, thanks to the enthusiasm of folks here at Bladeforums. Still seeing how much I can fit in around school.
------------------
-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
- Joined
- Oct 3, 1998
- Messages
- 4,842
Anthony --
A brief reminder of auction's claim:
>THe Specwar is made of the highest quality steel
used in production knives, ATS-34
No mention of stainless steel. No mention of price. Just "highest quality". Given that, you know as well as I do that claim is uninformed at best. Just for the record, I've never been an ATS-34 basher, I think it's a fine steel for many uses and remains near the top for stainless steels, but is not the best.
But since auction asked me (actually, more like challenged me) to be explicit in a later post, I'll go through the exercise anyway.
Now there are problems defining "highest quality" -- highest quality for what? But for "combat"-style use -- since that's what this thread is about -- the following steels have been used in production knives: D-2, M-2, A-2, 52100, L-6, BG-42, VG-10, and 440V.
Again, auction never mentioned price or stainlessness, just "highest quality". The 1st 5 will outperform ATS-34 in all areas except for stainlessness. If stainlessness isn't an issue, or you use a blade coating, they all win. BG-42 beats ATS-34 in all areas. 440V probably would. VG-10 I don't have much experience with (just got my Spyderco Moran!), but based on the reviews I've seen, most people seem to favor it over ATS-34 also, in all areas.
Anyway, I agree ATS-34 is a fine steel, but it is not the best steel out there, depending on what you're looking for.
Joe
A brief reminder of auction's claim:
>THe Specwar is made of the highest quality steel
used in production knives, ATS-34
No mention of stainless steel. No mention of price. Just "highest quality". Given that, you know as well as I do that claim is uninformed at best. Just for the record, I've never been an ATS-34 basher, I think it's a fine steel for many uses and remains near the top for stainless steels, but is not the best.
But since auction asked me (actually, more like challenged me) to be explicit in a later post, I'll go through the exercise anyway.
Now there are problems defining "highest quality" -- highest quality for what? But for "combat"-style use -- since that's what this thread is about -- the following steels have been used in production knives: D-2, M-2, A-2, 52100, L-6, BG-42, VG-10, and 440V.
Again, auction never mentioned price or stainlessness, just "highest quality". The 1st 5 will outperform ATS-34 in all areas except for stainlessness. If stainlessness isn't an issue, or you use a blade coating, they all win. BG-42 beats ATS-34 in all areas. 440V probably would. VG-10 I don't have much experience with (just got my Spyderco Moran!), but based on the reviews I've seen, most people seem to favor it over ATS-34 also, in all areas.
Anyway, I agree ATS-34 is a fine steel, but it is not the best steel out there, depending on what you're looking for.
Joe
- Joined
- Oct 3, 1998
- Messages
- 4,842
Thought I'd elaborate on the steel discussion a bit more. Most importantly, auction, I find any discussion of "highest quality" (in the sense that it implies the "best" in some absolute sense) steel, in the absence of detailed design criteria, does more harm than good right off the bat. Steels are by and large bundles of tradeoffs regarding toughness, stainlessness, edgeholding, availability, price, ease of maching and heat treating, etc. Since I can easily give you design criteria which favor lowly 440-A over ATS-34, really laying down the context well is important. We've done almost none of that in this string, so any talk of "highest quality" may be met by howls.
Let's discuss ATS-34 for a moment. Like all steels, it's a bundle of compromises. It's easily available and price isn't too bad. It is ostensibly a "stainless" steel, but not by much. It holds an edge nice, but there are better. In production-knife heat treat, its toughness is mediocre (some heat treaters like Ernie Mayer may be getting significant toughness increases) in my opinion, I chip out ATS-34 more often than I'd like.
Starting with stainlessness, as I said if that's a high priority for you, you can do much better than ATS-34, or you can get your ATS-34 coated [ But if you're going to go with a coated knife, why not go with a steel that outperforms ATS-34 on toughness and edge holding? ] I personally haven't had problems with ATS-34 rusting outside of the home kitchen and camp kitchen. But others have had problems with it in general usage.
I find edge holding on most production-company ATS-34 blades to be pretty good.
Toughness is my biggest complaint with ATS-34. ATS-34 sometimes has trouble supporting the kind of edge geometry I like -- one which cuts well. I end up chipping out the edge at some point or another and having to thicken the edge and sacrifice cutting performance. On a big "combat" knife, whose edge is going to be put through its paces, for *me* a tough edge (so it can support a performance edge) is important. If you're just going to be digging holes with it, maybe you don't care about the sharpness of the edge as much.
Okay, so far I've discussed me, not you. Perhaps you don't mind having a thicker, lower-performance edge. Perhaps your previous combat knife was uncoated O-1, so ATS-34's mediocre stainlessness is still a huge improvement for you. There are any number of reasons why ATS-34 might be an excellent choice for you.
As a general combat blade, my guess -- which is backed by a lot of data gathering -- is that there are better choices in steels for most people.
Joe Talmadge
Let's discuss ATS-34 for a moment. Like all steels, it's a bundle of compromises. It's easily available and price isn't too bad. It is ostensibly a "stainless" steel, but not by much. It holds an edge nice, but there are better. In production-knife heat treat, its toughness is mediocre (some heat treaters like Ernie Mayer may be getting significant toughness increases) in my opinion, I chip out ATS-34 more often than I'd like.
Starting with stainlessness, as I said if that's a high priority for you, you can do much better than ATS-34, or you can get your ATS-34 coated [ But if you're going to go with a coated knife, why not go with a steel that outperforms ATS-34 on toughness and edge holding? ] I personally haven't had problems with ATS-34 rusting outside of the home kitchen and camp kitchen. But others have had problems with it in general usage.
I find edge holding on most production-company ATS-34 blades to be pretty good.
Toughness is my biggest complaint with ATS-34. ATS-34 sometimes has trouble supporting the kind of edge geometry I like -- one which cuts well. I end up chipping out the edge at some point or another and having to thicken the edge and sacrifice cutting performance. On a big "combat" knife, whose edge is going to be put through its paces, for *me* a tough edge (so it can support a performance edge) is important. If you're just going to be digging holes with it, maybe you don't care about the sharpness of the edge as much.
Okay, so far I've discussed me, not you. Perhaps you don't mind having a thicker, lower-performance edge. Perhaps your previous combat knife was uncoated O-1, so ATS-34's mediocre stainlessness is still a huge improvement for you. There are any number of reasons why ATS-34 might be an excellent choice for you.
As a general combat blade, my guess -- which is backed by a lot of data gathering -- is that there are better choices in steels for most people.
Joe Talmadge
- Joined
- Oct 4, 1998
- Messages
- 529
Trivial info for whom it may concern...
I work with a former Navy SEAL (early 80's) and he says that different SEAL teams are issued different materials.
Taking this into consideration, it is quite possible that there are a multitude of knife designs offered many different manufacturers in use among the different SEAL teams. This could explain why there are so many "official SEAL issue" knives.
My friend says he was actually issued a Ka-Bar, and that he rarely used it for anything. He knows very little about knives, or hand to hand combat for that matter, but if you start talking covert ops, infiltration, munitions, firearms and explosives, he's the man!
His comment as far as "fighting knives" is concerned is, "If I have to use a knife, I'm too close." He was never in a situation where he had use for a "survival" or "combat" knife.
Orion
I work with a former Navy SEAL (early 80's) and he says that different SEAL teams are issued different materials.
Taking this into consideration, it is quite possible that there are a multitude of knife designs offered many different manufacturers in use among the different SEAL teams. This could explain why there are so many "official SEAL issue" knives.
My friend says he was actually issued a Ka-Bar, and that he rarely used it for anything. He knows very little about knives, or hand to hand combat for that matter, but if you start talking covert ops, infiltration, munitions, firearms and explosives, he's the man!
His comment as far as "fighting knives" is concerned is, "If I have to use a knife, I'm too close." He was never in a situation where he had use for a "survival" or "combat" knife.
Orion
- Joined
- Oct 3, 1998
- Messages
- 4,842
Orion --
I don't follow the topic very closely, since it doesn't interest me much, but a few people have explained the "official SEAL knife" thing, and they jibe pretty much with your theory. In addition, everyone involved says the process to pick an "official" knife may have criteria -- such as availability and price and political connections of the manufacturer -- that we here may not want to take into account in a "best combat knife" discussion. Further, individual operators are given wide latitude in purchasing their own knives. As a result, I consider the "official" monikor to be nothing more than a footnote to the discussion.
As far your SEAL friend saying he had little use for a fighting knife, that's pretty much the consensus. However, we're talking about "combat knives" here, and the standard definition of that is *not* a fighting knife. In fact, as your friend illustrates, fighting with a knife is something most combat troops don't do. A combat knife is a knife used by or designed for combat troops. There's another combat knife thread on this forum, and in it Les Robertson goes into some detail on what he used a combat knife for, and his description is along the lines of what I've heard from a lot of others.
Joe
I don't follow the topic very closely, since it doesn't interest me much, but a few people have explained the "official SEAL knife" thing, and they jibe pretty much with your theory. In addition, everyone involved says the process to pick an "official" knife may have criteria -- such as availability and price and political connections of the manufacturer -- that we here may not want to take into account in a "best combat knife" discussion. Further, individual operators are given wide latitude in purchasing their own knives. As a result, I consider the "official" monikor to be nothing more than a footnote to the discussion.
As far your SEAL friend saying he had little use for a fighting knife, that's pretty much the consensus. However, we're talking about "combat knives" here, and the standard definition of that is *not* a fighting knife. In fact, as your friend illustrates, fighting with a knife is something most combat troops don't do. A combat knife is a knife used by or designed for combat troops. There's another combat knife thread on this forum, and in it Les Robertson goes into some detail on what he used a combat knife for, and his description is along the lines of what I've heard from a lot of others.
Joe
- Joined
- Oct 4, 1998
- Messages
- 529
Joe,
That was the gist of my post.
He basically had no real need for a "fighting" knife OR a "combat" knife. He had the tools to do the job at hand and they were basically deployed and extracted very quickly so he was never stranded in a "survival" or "combat" situation where the use of a "combat" utility knife was relevant.
I also agree with your concensus of the "official" miniker. That was also another thing I was trying to illustrate in my post. Sorry if I was vague.
My main point was that the "Official SEAL Issue" moniker is nothing more than hype, because there is no primary "official" SEAL issue and even when they are issued a knife, there is really never any need for it, whether it be for killing, fighting, survival or "combat".
Later-
Orion
That was the gist of my post.
He basically had no real need for a "fighting" knife OR a "combat" knife. He had the tools to do the job at hand and they were basically deployed and extracted very quickly so he was never stranded in a "survival" or "combat" situation where the use of a "combat" utility knife was relevant.
I also agree with your concensus of the "official" miniker. That was also another thing I was trying to illustrate in my post. Sorry if I was vague.
My main point was that the "Official SEAL Issue" moniker is nothing more than hype, because there is no primary "official" SEAL issue and even when they are issued a knife, there is really never any need for it, whether it be for killing, fighting, survival or "combat".
Later-
Orion
- Joined
- Oct 3, 1998
- Messages
- 4,842
Orion -- Okay, in that case I'm a little surprised! Most guys I've talked to have experiences similar to Les. Busting open ammo crates, digging holes, prying, pounding, and otherwise abusing their combat knives. I guess some of the guys actually do you use the right tool for the right job!
not2sharp
Platinum Member
- Joined
- Jun 29, 1999
- Messages
- 20,413
It's refreshing to see folks call it as they see it. I certainly can't count on the knife mags to do the same. Actually, I do not recall ever seeing a negative knife review in any magazine. Cord, Snickersee, and others a sincere thanks.
Corduroy, best wishes with the knifemaking, put me on your waiting list for something (we'll figure our what it is after you come up with a catalog).
Corduroy, best wishes with the knifemaking, put me on your waiting list for something (we'll figure our what it is after you come up with a catalog).
- Joined
- May 2, 1999
- Messages
- 1,206
Thanks for putting up with my b.s. guys!
I may be a loud mouthed wind bag, but I do try to speak the truth and back up what I say with first-hand knowledge. I've found that you can't trust most things unless you see it with your own eyes. Even me. I don't have a lot of fancy credentials, just another hard luck bastard trying to make his way in the world. I encourage everyone to not take what I say at face value, experiment and research on your own if I say something that doesn't sound right. Just don't contradict everything I say for the sake of arguement, that's annoying.
Anyway, I was thinking about what Orion said, you know it does seem that while these elite guys like SEAL's do valuable work and are sent into dangerous situations, they tend to be on VERY specialized missions and usual in-and-out sort of operations. That's what they're trained and organized for. That probably wouldn't give them much time or reason to mess around with knives. Sure, they're great at what they do, but they might not be the best source of inspiration for a knife. A regular old 11-B infantry rifleman, who's gonna be deployed in the field for longer periods and with a more generalized mission profile might be a better idea.
Or we could all admit knives aren't really a central theme in modern military actions, and that we really use them the most, and even then most of our knives are sufficient but we just really like them so are always looking for something better, and that we probably know as good as anyone else what we need/want in a knife. Unfortunately, that'd take all the romance and daring do out of it...
An observation; Have you ever noticed how every so often we're presented with things like tanto points and chisel grinds that are supposed to be way better than anything else, but a little while later you see "refined" forms appearing that are remarkably like the old stuff? Like tanto's with clip points and chisel grinds that have a second bevel on the other side to make it easier to sharpen, but actualy making it more like a "standard" knife edge? Kinda curious...
Anyway, I was thinking about what Orion said, you know it does seem that while these elite guys like SEAL's do valuable work and are sent into dangerous situations, they tend to be on VERY specialized missions and usual in-and-out sort of operations. That's what they're trained and organized for. That probably wouldn't give them much time or reason to mess around with knives. Sure, they're great at what they do, but they might not be the best source of inspiration for a knife. A regular old 11-B infantry rifleman, who's gonna be deployed in the field for longer periods and with a more generalized mission profile might be a better idea.
Or we could all admit knives aren't really a central theme in modern military actions, and that we really use them the most, and even then most of our knives are sufficient but we just really like them so are always looking for something better, and that we probably know as good as anyone else what we need/want in a knife. Unfortunately, that'd take all the romance and daring do out of it...
An observation; Have you ever noticed how every so often we're presented with things like tanto points and chisel grinds that are supposed to be way better than anything else, but a little while later you see "refined" forms appearing that are remarkably like the old stuff? Like tanto's with clip points and chisel grinds that have a second bevel on the other side to make it easier to sharpen, but actualy making it more like a "standard" knife edge? Kinda curious...
I think it's high time we realized that SEALs and other military personnel (who may not be heavy knife users, as pointed out) buy knives the same way that many of us do: because they look cool, grab our attention, inspire our confidence, or just somehow appeal to us. Then they take these knives out in the field and they work quite well. Why? Because most any knife will work quite well when the user knows how to use it and understands its abilities. This is too often construed as proof that the knife is a great piece, when in fact it is an adequate piece with a great user.
I try to take design input from my military buddies as much as possible. But I find that when you sit a bunch of folks down to design a knife, especially if they think of it piecemeal instead of as an integrated whole, you end up with a knife that has crazy knobs and grooves on the handle for dozens of grips and sawteeth, hammering points, notches, cutouts, and other functional and functionless gizmos all over the blade. This is what I call a knife "designed by a committee" - after the saying, "A camel is a horse designed by a committee."
It is necessary to keep the primary function of the knife firmly in perspective, and to view the knife as a whole at all times, even as you consider this or that area. A field knife slices and chops. It should also slash or pierce reasonably. It may be called upon to dig, split, pry, hammer, saw, or perform other more obscure tasks, but these functions should never be allowed to substantially impair the primary abilities of the knife.
That's my opinion, plain and simple. Question my credentials if you will, but I'd rather see a good argument directed at my reasoning. We can all learn something from discussing the latter, and can learn nothing from discussing the former.
Auction,
I want to apologize because I did not realize in my initial post that you were a new forum member. This thread was no way to be welcomed to Bladeforums, and I hope you understand that my derision was aimed at the knives and not at you. I am sorry for any offense taken, and I want to say more properly, "Welcome to the forum." I have not been here long myself, but have come to appreciate it as a place where folks may speak their mind freely and be fairly evaluated by their peers. My understanding and appreciation of knives has profitted from my time here, so much so that I am doing work in my shop again (left untouched for two years while I was at school). I hope that your experience here is as positive as mine, and, again, I'm sorry if I started it off on the wrong foot.
------------------
-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
I try to take design input from my military buddies as much as possible. But I find that when you sit a bunch of folks down to design a knife, especially if they think of it piecemeal instead of as an integrated whole, you end up with a knife that has crazy knobs and grooves on the handle for dozens of grips and sawteeth, hammering points, notches, cutouts, and other functional and functionless gizmos all over the blade. This is what I call a knife "designed by a committee" - after the saying, "A camel is a horse designed by a committee."
It is necessary to keep the primary function of the knife firmly in perspective, and to view the knife as a whole at all times, even as you consider this or that area. A field knife slices and chops. It should also slash or pierce reasonably. It may be called upon to dig, split, pry, hammer, saw, or perform other more obscure tasks, but these functions should never be allowed to substantially impair the primary abilities of the knife.
That's my opinion, plain and simple. Question my credentials if you will, but I'd rather see a good argument directed at my reasoning. We can all learn something from discussing the latter, and can learn nothing from discussing the former.
Auction,
I want to apologize because I did not realize in my initial post that you were a new forum member. This thread was no way to be welcomed to Bladeforums, and I hope you understand that my derision was aimed at the knives and not at you. I am sorry for any offense taken, and I want to say more properly, "Welcome to the forum." I have not been here long myself, but have come to appreciate it as a place where folks may speak their mind freely and be fairly evaluated by their peers. My understanding and appreciation of knives has profitted from my time here, so much so that I am doing work in my shop again (left untouched for two years while I was at school). I hope that your experience here is as positive as mine, and, again, I'm sorry if I started it off on the wrong foot.
------------------
-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)