Best Knife for carry and self-defense

Where is Jim March in all of this? He is the man to quote chapter and verse about the legalities of varios kinds of carry here in the Golden State, and could probably point you in the right direction to aquire training locally in the proper use.

I am strictly a tool user myself
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Jim moderates here on the forum, so you might want to wander over to Community and drop him a line. He is very friendly for a guy who designed a knife called "The Outsider".

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James
 
For what knife would work best in a social situation, and how to use it to best advantage, I'll defer to the martial artists.

In California, there is, as has been mentioned, NO blade length limit for a folding knife in its folded condition "on the street." In government buildings or schools, that ain't necessarily so. Folders with thumb studs and thumb holes are not "switchblades." Any fixed blade, no matter how short and utilitarian, is a "dirk or dagger," so don't carry a concealed fixed blade.

Never tell a cop you're carrying that knife "for protection," or you'll be paying an expensive lawyer to show the judge that the statute says you weren't committing a crime.

And it ain't (only) liberals who are responsible for CA's or anybody else's restrictive knife laws. It's "law & order" types generally. Our culture sees knives, when seen as weapons, as nasty and sneaky weapons.

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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
 
"I don't believe in knife fights"

I love that one. So tactical.

Around here the weapon you are second most likely to be attacked by is anged weapons of some sort, be it a knife, razorblade, or boxcutter.

The first most common is an improvised bludgeon of some sorts.

Last I heard the kitchen knife was the weapon of choice in most murders, although they're probably crimes of passion that happen in homes and not on the "street".

Both edged and impact weapons share charachteristics that "duelling skills" will provide dramatic help in dealing with. Not believing in knife fights and ignoring the pertinent skills places artificial restrictions on you that will ultimately put you at a disadvantage.

As mentioned above, an edged weapons is the second most likely weapon you'll encounter around here, if you are also armed with a knife you've got a knife fight.

As far as suprising your enemy, that's pretty much a pipe dream unless you believe in preliminary attacks against people who you think might be threats. And that one will land you in prison.

Most likely, depending on what you mean by "street", your attacker will approach you quite openly making no bones about what he's going to try and do to you. If you produce a weapon, it won't suprise him, it's likely what he expected. These guys have been playing the game a while, macho fantasies don't change that. The average sedentary citizen, no matter how many hours he has in the dojo, will have a hard time handling an experienced thug or streetfighter.

The other possibility is that he suprises you. I suppose you could counter-suprise, but that will only have limited effect after you've been shot, whacked on the head, or stabbed in the back.

The only real time you will have for suprise is in those fights that start with long bull****ting sessions that happen at various social gatherings. Fortunately, they are probably the sorts of situations you will most likely encounter.

But then it's not so much the suprise as it is the intimidation. And never draw a weapon unless you intend to put it instantly into play. Just showing your weapon off can get it snatched away from you, and brandishing weapons is illegal in most places. Knifing/shooting badguys who are placing your body in immenent danger usualy isn't. If it's just a shouting match, you are not likely to be seen as justified in producing a weapon.

As to the actual knife type, that depends on the self defense course/martial art you are going to study in. Some have specific requirements, other work better with certain things.

In general, you want a folder that has a gaurd that's either built into the bolster(first choice), or blade(second choice) to prevent your finger from slipping up onto the edge and getting cut.

You also want a good strong lock. I have no love for liners at all. The others are generaly adequate, if well executed.

If you learn how to use the point of your knife you can get the advantage of being able to use your knife for chores, even getting it a bit dull, and not significantly reducing it's effectiveness. Then you'll want a knife that's got a real good built-in gaurd, and a good thrusting point.

Tantos are not an example of a good thrusting point. Yes, you can thrust with one, just like you can race with a Yugo. That doesn't mean that a tanto is particularly suited for that purpose, nor is a Yugo gonna outpace a Porsche.

Clips, drops, spears, and especialy double-edgers are all significantly better penetrators than tanto points.

Thumbstuds and bladeholes are nice but not neccessary. You can do fast one-handed opeings without them. Besides, in reality you will probably be trying to fight your way out of a bad situation after being suprised, or have plenty of time to draw and open as your enemy approaches. In the vast majority of circulstances you are better served by making an opening using unarmed techniques and then drawing and opening using two hands, because the badguy is going to be hitting/wrestling you again as soon as he can, and it's too easy to cut yourself on the blade when trying to open one-handed while being body slammed.

If you're carrying groceries, drop them. Don't try to use you tactical one-hander to fight the badguy off while holding the bags, that's a bad idea. Cheerios and beer is not worth your life.

The only time you'll really be opening that knife one-handed in a fight is when your pinned to the ground with only one arm free getting pummeled by a much more powerful opponent. Again, there are any number of techniques to open a knife that lacks a bladehole or thumbstud with only one hand.

You also probably don't want a real expensive folder since it's very likely to be confiscated or lost.

My personal reccomendation, though it never fails to upset the tactical set, is the Buck XlTi that sells for somehting around sixty dollars.

It's essentialy their 110 folding hunter, only with a titanium handle that's finger grooved and has the best built-in gaurd on the bolster of any production folder I've seen. Note: many custom folders lack any sort of gaurd.

Anyway, I carried and used mine for a long time, and have even used it, and similar knives, to defend myself. It's strong and reliable, and those finger grooves are done in such a way that they fit most hands.

A Vaquero Grande would be cool too, but it would probably draw a lot of unwanted attention.
 
Oh, Snickersnee, you made fun of me!

But, since you taught me something and gave me some good stuff to think about, I won't take it personally.

In my reference to surprise, I had in mind a situation where the aggressor attacks first with words, and then escalates the situation with physical contact.
I would like to surprise him with a fluid and effortless Judo technique, but failing that, a knife in his armpit would satisfy me.

I humbly blush at your admonishment about not learning how to fight with a knife.
I still need to come to an understanding of "no contest".

If I ever need to spend some time in a truly "rough" neighborhood, Snickersnee, I would welcome your company: as Floydd Duckworth said, "Whatever you prepare for never happens."

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Luke 22:36, John 18:6-11
 
The best knife for self defense is the knife that you will carry daily. The knife that is comfortable to carry. The knife that is easy to get to. The knife that is easy to hold on to, once you get to it.
I personally like to carry a fixed blade in the handle down position, hanging from my right front pocket, via a micarta clip. Very quick, very easy to get to, and very legal, if left visible.

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Lynn Griffith-Tactical Knifemaker
Winner of "Best Tactical Knife" at 1999 PKA show
My website
See my award winning "Spec Ops Tanto" in Gallery 3 of my website
GriffithKN@aol.com

 
Personally I carry a Spyderco Native ($37.00 where I shop) and it's great. Razor sharp, lightning fast, nicely pointy, and a great grip, plus unlike my BM it's small enough to palm, which is how I generally carry it, especially at night near cover (I'm famous for going out of my way at night to walk across open parks, streets, etc. in order to avoid darkness, doorways, bushes, etc.) I'm sure the higher-priced knives work better (at least some of them) but I don't think it's enough to justify the spending since my use of a knife will be limited to slashing or penetrating until I can run away. I do practice with the Spydie, and I think that's much more important--watch cops long enough and you'll notice that some of the dumbest punks (ergo, the ones who get in the most fights) carry steak knives and box cutters, so the skill and will must be more important.
All just MHO, of course.

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"Iron Discipline is essential in acquiring proper truth-handling abilities. Neglect it and suffer. Thus endeth the lesson."
Master Warren Rowland
 
A good walking cane and some pepper spray will probably work better for self defense than a knife, as there isn't much difference between a $20 4in lockblade and a $300 4in deadly ninja killer knife if someone is swinging a heavy, unbreakable 36in or so club and is breaking bones when they connect, after they've sprayed you down from 10ft away with pepper spray and you can't see and can barely breathe. Play out the situation with some foam or such. I'd suggest getting a knife that you will use for daily tasks and not worrying as much about fighting off people with knives, as the people you're worried about probably aren't going to be using a knife. I guess the best advice is to consider a knife as backup or as merely one tool for self defense, not the primary one.
 
As noted already, the best news about CA knife laws is the "unlimited size folders". A few towns have stricter limits but they're generally infraction offenses and if the piece is *concealed* anyways, you'll only get popped if you actually had to use it.

About your only risk is losing a good knife...when I get the Sifu and daily-carry it I'll be careful in Berkeley, San Fran or other tight jurisdictions but other than that, no worries.

Which knife for your *fighting style* is a whole 'nuther question. The basic housecat-fu "scratch and run" plan that the Civilian was designed for is perfectly sound. At some point in your training (if you go that far) you'll gravitate to a "longer range gameplan" or a "short-range higher speed" type mindset. I know that as someone big and pretty slow, somebody small and fast would be best off trying to "tear me up on the inside". People into that "fast and inside" school of thought often prefer smaller 5" or so blades even if they can carry something a bit bigger, see also the Indonesian "Kerampit" concept of reverse-grip fighters that the REKAT Hobbit Warrior is distantly related to.

A 5.5" or so megafolder should prove suitable to most combat styles. A particular grip may not fit your hand of course.

If you're going to open-carry an FB, the biggest limitation will be those few "strict knife law" cities. I don't open-carry my $400 fixed blades in Berkeley but in general, if you don't obviously cause trouble such as drunk-in-public, don't "look like any of several types of scum" and are capable of basic politeness to a cop you can run around with some fairly serious blade on hip with little trouble...out to 7" or so, seldom a second glance. I designed a special sheath for my Outsider that "minimizes the sheeple freakout effect yet stays legal", by doing tip-up carry and hiding a good portion of the blade length under a jacket or shirt edge yet have the entire grip poke out obviously visible. Cops know it's there, sheeple do too if they pay attention but they "don't get the full horror of the 9" blade".

A thread documenting this is at:
http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum26/HTML/000306.html

Jim March
 
I've already said everything I have to say on this subject, unless somebody wants to ask me something specific for some reason, but there is one matter I'd like to clear up.

Ken, that opening statement was not aimed at you. It is a common "tactical" sentiment, and I did not realize that I'd quoted you verbatim.

I'm disparaging the sentiment, I'm not trying to make fun of you.

So anyway, I extend my humble apologies, though I do feel that my observation is valid, it was not my itention to personaly belittle anyone.

Why go for a personal attack when you can ridicule everyone for out of touch beliefs?
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One thing that Jim March suggests is, that the way the CA law is written, a D/A knife is lawfull. That is the way I read the law as well. A test case would be most interesting. I`m exempt, but I`d like the Bill of Rights back. A trip to his web site would be well worth your time. I have forwarded it to LEO`s, but we all preach to the choir, don`t we?

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[This message has been edited by ghostsix (edited 08 September 1999).]
 
Colonel, thanks...the website he refers to related to CA *gun* law, specifically CCW permits. I don't post the URL with every post, but it's here:

Equal Rights for CCW Home Page http://www.ninehundred.com/~equalccw

Jim March
 
Magicuser, definitely shop around and research. Also, if you have time, drop by the Tactical Forum. I for one am interested in the types of situations that YOU feel you will encounter. What do you see in your minds eye?

Training is good.
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I like Spyderco, particularly the Endura and Delica models in plain or combo edges. Though the AFCK has earned itself as a staple of street carry.

Snicker, for your insolence we will now take a Buck 110, drill a Spyderhole into it attach a pocket clip into the side. BWAHAHAHA! Eh yeah.
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Gwinny, you're back!
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Anyhow,
First off, there is never any reason I know of to carry a folder when a fixed-blade is legally and socially acceptable. I'm talking about folders because I thought that (as they often are) a fixed-blade had been ruled unacceptable.

Second, I'll be quite frank about my lack of training in "knife fighting" or other martial activities. I have been taught about and try to practice a basic awareness of my surroundings and the folks in them, to avoid trouble, keep my back to the wall, and stay near an exit whenever in uncertain areas. I do practice with the knives I carry, but it's all "draw and strike," not the intricacies of a "fight" situation. Here are the situations I'm preparing for, and feel free to enlighten me if I'm being unrealistic.

Getting grabbed from behind. Getting grabbed from the front. Getting "jumped." Being struck with a weapon by surprise (front, rear, sides).

Basically, I expect I'll be unawares (maybe my guard was down, maybe they were behind me, etc.), violence is initiated, and my response is to draw, slash until I connect solidly, and run like hell. I do hope to surprise the assailant with my weapon and I don't intend to "square off" or stick around for a real fight. I don't expect an assailant will assume I'm armed - no criminal in their right mind (that's a loaded phrase) picks on someone they think has a weapon, as prison surveys have shown.

If I can see trouble coming, I can try to avoid it. If it's a verbal confrontation, I can say whatever is necessary to duck out. If the threat of violence is stated, I'm willing to hand over any belongings rather than escalate (but will NOT go anywhere with them or allow loved ones to be endangered). My "worst case scenario" is an awares encounter with an armed opponent which I can't weasel out of in any way - but even in this situation producing a weapon quickly and by surpise seems my best bet, especially if I can feign helplessness or terror (assuming my mindset stays focussed enough to avoid the real thing) and not be treated as an armed threat.

Snickersnee, you seem to expect assailants to march up to you, declare their intentions, and produce a weapon, not demanding money or the anything, just looking for a fight. This is not what I expect. Should I? I'm a pretty harmless looking fellow and try to avoid getting "bad attention." I was expecting more of a surprise attack that would be over in seconds, either with me running and them bleeding, or something much worse for me.

-Drew
 
Jim,

I just checked out your CCW site. I like it a lot! I live in Santa Clara County and would really like to obtain a CCW but probably not possible. I'll join your fight once I learn more details of what your doing.

I also went over to the Geoff Metcalf page and will be gathering signatures for defeating SB23. Maybe we can get Gun Owners of California involved with this project.
 
Drew, where are you? That will have a lot to do with what happens to you.

Being that everybody is talking about "the street" I assume they mean "the `hood".

If you're walking through a rough neighborhood, an individual or group will decide he/they don't like you, walk towards you in a menacing manner(or send a single representative), they will then proceed to start talking smack and comence physical violence shortly thereafter.

This will invariably happen before you are the victim of a sneak attack. Sometimes they will shout profanities and chalenges at you from some distance. It you pretend not to notice, you just my be able to walk by without incedent.

True sneak attacks are the worst scenario, but they're also not common on "the street". Not as common as the other kind anyway.

Most of the violence is initiated due to an odd mix of rascism, classism, dissalusionment, blind hatred, and plain ol' macho b.s.

Very rarely(comparatively) will you have somebody demand money or somesuch. Don't get me wrong, they'll rob you blind and strip you naked after they've thrashed you, but mostly they just want to kick your butt and humiliate you to fufil some weird deficiency in themselves.

Intentional murders are even less common. You will get beaten up for no reason 1,000 times before you will ever be murdered intentionaly.

That's not to say that it's not good policy to train for the rarest scenarios, like I said, they're also the worst. Thing is, you can see a lot of this stuff coming.

Now, if all you do is stick to upper middle class neighborhoods and shopping districts, spend little time in transit, and don't get around much at all, chances are pretty good you'll get attacked by somebody for money. Especialy if you drive a car.

Mostly because if you don't have exposure to certain environments, you're removing a lot of the more common threats and the people who you will now encounter have a more specific purpose in mind than just stomping your head for no real reason.

It's not very likely a millionaire in Palm Beach will get in a streetfight, even though they are common on "the street". He is much more likely to have his house broken into and be murdered, even though this is relatively rare on "the street".

I'm not saying these things happen more frequently or less frequently to one group or another, it's just that the millionaire is isolated from the bajillion penny ante beatdowns a hard luck bastard like myself is likely to run into before he gets intentionaly murdered or robbed.

It's not that the millionaire is getting murdered more, it's that he's getting beat up less.

Running away can be a real bad idea on "the street" or in a fight. Reason being that you can't run anywhere your attacker can't. Plus, you've now turned your back to your opponent, a "tactical" no-no.

If you want to slash and run, that's fine. It can work. Just make sure that the other guy is in no shape to give chase, and that he doesn't have any buddies who will take up the fight for him. Oh, he usualy will. These guys seldom travel alone.

Avoiding a situation in the first place is one thing, but be careful when and where you run.(remember Holy Grail? "When danger reared it's ugly head/He bravely turned his tail and fled
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A single slash may not be enough to discourage pursuit. I've seen girls in razor fights really slice eachother to ribbons before it's over. In a couple, one of the girls didn't even know she was getting cut.

Actualy, it can be hard to know when you're getting cut, `cause it usualy doesn't hurt, as your mind is on other matters. Basicaly, if you think somebody is punching you, only you're bleeding excessively, he/she is likely armed with an edged weapon.

Same thing can go for bludgeons. If an assailant produces a weapon that you weren't aware he had, or sneak attacks, you may not realize he's armed with a club.

You'll just be thinking "DAMN! this guy hits hard!"

I know `cause it's happened to me. You can talk about "tactical awareness" all you want, but things are different when the fur flies. It can take a couple whalops before you realize that the other guy is armed with something.

So if you want to be safe on the streets, don't visit them. Shelter yourself. Isolate yourself. Hole up in a rich neighborhood, order in Chinese and spend all your free time on the internet looking at porno for the rest of your life, and you'll probably never have to defend yourself.

 
To address the original question,I`d recomend a CS Lg.Vaquero (5")folder (or a Vaq.Grande with a 6" blade if you`re comfy with it.) carried in the strongside hip pocket. It`s relatively cheap ,light,strong,and it`s 5" serrated recurved blade cuts through fabric and meat like butter. The blade also has enough mass that wrist flicking snap opening is really easy reliable and fast. Carried in a back pocket aboout 3/4" will stick out making it easy to grab and technically not concealed but doesn`t draw any attention. I`ve been carrying on this way for some time now and no one has noticed yet. It`s not a fancy system but it works for me. Marcus
 
A self defense knife should be used as a last resort in my opinion. I would choose a fixed blade or one handed opener in a folder. You should be able to access it quickly if you were attacked and pinned to the ground. Most any other situation can be difussed by talk or turning and running.

I would have most emphasis on access rather than blade style, make of knife, handle, etc...
 
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