Best or Boast

Loki

Loki

Joined
Mar 23, 2000
Messages
740
Seem like every day someone is laying claim to the "best." New steels, handle materials, sheath materials, designs, etc.. Now this might be a naive question but just how much better can the next new knive be over the current line-up? Is BG-42 really so much better than ATS-34? Is 440c junk? Is O-1 obsolete? Does carbon fiber make micarta or wood no longer desirable? Does an RC of only 58 make a knife too soft for any "serious" use? Just how "space-age" does a knife have to be to do what a knife needs to do? The more I use my various knives the more I tend to think that most of what we see hailed as the next great techno-feat is more akin to a great marketing effort to sell knives. I don't have anything against such but perhaps we shouldn't be so quick to snicker at the old fashioned knife as they seem to work just fine.
 
I dunno the answers to all your questions but I do know I like my Opinels just fine. When it works,it works.
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Hoodoo

And so, to all outdoor folks, the knife is the most important item of equipment.

Ellsworth Jaeger - Wildwood Wisdom
 
These are issues I have been dealing with. I love the latest, hardest, longest lasting, most durable wonder knife, but I also know that relatively inexpensive but well constructed knives can do anything that fancy production or customs knives can do except leave you broke! I have both inexpensive and high end knives and I know price and material alone do not make a knife great.
 
Loki,

I know exactly what you mean! Seems like very regularly there is some "supersteel" that is introduced.....when all is said and done regarding knife steels, it is difficult to beat the old simple, carbon steels.
What I feel that has changed over the years and is not hype is the great workmanship today..of course the knifemakers of today have the best of tools, etc; and their knowledge of steels today is awesome!
 
I'll agree as regards workmanship. I think the quality bar is much higher today than in previous times. This has forced all to put forth better constructed products - production and custom. Quality doesn't always mean synthetic materials and exotic steels (or even steel substitutes). Quality and usefullness doesn't mean having been selected as the winner by some mysterious military organization. Seems that hype is as much a part of the knife industry as steel. I can live with O-1 and leather handles on knives - I like Randalls. However, I'm not hi-tech knife averse - I just don't think they make the "old" stuff obsolete.
 
Originally posted by Loki:
Quality doesn't always mean synthetic materials and exotic steels
Click to expand...

I know I'm out of step with most of you, but those synthetics and exotic alloys, have nothing to do with a quality knife for me.

 
I'm certainly no expert, but, by and large, I'll agree that, for a person who's relatively skilled at sharpening a blade, a good many of the knife steels offered today will do just fine.

For that 1/100th of 1% of us whose lives or livelihood really does depend on the indestructibility and performance of our knives, these newer, stronger steels could be viewed as a necessity. For the rest of us, I guess it's fair to say that these "exotic" steels are more akin to a luxury. But that admission shouldn't take anything away from the fact that they are still an improvement. Like it or not, it's a simple fact that you could hand the best 1095 blade ever produced to Ed Schott and he'd be able to make you a blade out of CPM-3V with an edge that was every bit as tough and durable as the 1095's, yet would cut more efficiently (due to the fact that you could grind it significantly thinner). This is not in any way an indictment against 1095. 1095 is a fine steel, but let's not blind ourselves to the fact that CPM-3V is better; like steel is better than iron, and iron is better than bronze, and bronze is better than stone. And so it goes.

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Semper Fi
 
It's pretty much like anything else. Regardless of the materials used, the product can be no better than the craftmanship that shapes it. Ed Schott could probably make a knife out of 1095 that would be better than many others out of CPM-3V.

I think there are too many variables here to be able to generalize with any accuracy. Buy whatever floats your boat and enjoy it.
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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
 
I think the some new "space age" knives are better than older knives, however, does the increase in performance equal the increase in price? I don't think it does.
I really cannot believe how much money some folks will pay for certain working knives (not artwork or jewery knives).
 
If the knifemaker is reputable (and most are), it shouldn't cost that much more to go with a premium alloy.

My Kit Carson Talonite (r) bladed #18 folder cost me about 10% more than a regular ingot steel would have.

The CPM steels are somewhere around 1/3 the cost of Talonite (r), so shouldn't cost as much as that.

Walt
 
While I have no doubt that Ed Schott could make a very functional knife out of 1095, it would not be nearly as functional as the CPM-3V blade I currently have from him. Its geometry would not have the necessary support to keep the edge from being damaged if it was in 1095.

Better steels do not make better blades in and of themselves. A knifemaker should be able to make a better knife out of a better steel, but that means that they must understand how to take advantages of the abilities of the material. Simply crafting the same blade shape in a "new" material usually doesn't offer much, assuming the old version was functional of course.

There is a lot of hype about materials, which is bad as it turns a lot of people off. You get people really overpromoting new steels, and you get people overpromoting old steels. The trick is to be able to tell who is hyping and who is not. This is not a trivial thing to do.

-Cliff
 
All of the current knife blade steels from O1 up to and including talonite are "suitable" blade steels if made and used within there working parameters, (eg slicing vs chopping)
These steels have come to us from big industrie, not as convetional knife blade steel as we know it but as industrial knives, bearings and dies and punch steel. We have changed the steels intended use and created a new market for the steel manufaturer.
Only when this new market gets big enough to warrent the steel producers to mill or roll there product into sizes that we can redally use will that steel be recognized as a NEW knife blade steel.
There are plenty more "super Steels" out there that are not knowen knife blade steels only because we cannot purchase it in usable sizes or quantities for our purpose.
I have been slicing 3/4 X 1 1/4 bars into 1/8 X1 1/4 blade size slabs for 4 months now all in the name of experimenting because the sizes required are not currently avaliable.

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Robert
Flat Land Knife Works
rdblad@telusplanet.net
http://members.tripod.com/knifeworks/index.html
 
Let me interject something here on the costs associated with these new steels. Yes, you can buy CPM-3V stock for about 35% more than ATS-34. The amount needed to make an average (4") size blade probably costs about $8-10 in either steel.

That's were the parity ends. 3V takes me about twice as long to grind and bring to a level of finish that I find acceptable. (I'm speaking only of my knives here, so don't generalize what I'm saying.) I use about 3 times as many grinding belts and bandsaw blades in working 3V as I do with ATS-34/154CM or A2. And because of its special qualities, I spend an inordinate amount of time, getting all I can out of 3V steel in terms of edge definition and sharpness.

Quite possibly other makers are much more efficient than I am. I'm sure some are. But as with all custom knives in any steel, you are paying far more for the labor content than you are for materials.

As a buyer, it is your right to decide if the price of any knife is justified. There are custom makers who sell knives for under $100. Others charge $10,000 or more for any knife they make. We all price our knives the same way. We finish a knife, look at it, and ask ourselves, "what is it worth"? We guess; the buyer decides. As with any commodity, the market finds its own level.

Is gasoline worth $2.00 a gallon?
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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
 
I'm not a knifenut, I'm a "steelnut", i.e. collecting knives of "different steels", among other things to compare performance.

My definition of "best knife": the one you happen to have with you, when you really need one.

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D.T. UTZINGER
 
Modern Technology does in fact create steels that are superior for whatever specific purpose was intended. Todays autos are more efficent and more expensive than yesterdays. Todays motorcycles will perform feats not possible 20 years ago.

Yes, your 1982 Chev will still get you to work as well as your Y2K Porsche Boxter...but lets not say that there is no difference.

Grinding time on CPM-S60V (formerly CPM-440V) takes twice as long to grind than ATS-34. Wheel wear is 4 times greater so wheel cost is 4 times greater.

If someone is going to venture off into the "new" such as Talonite, they must be given credit for the effort, missionary work and lost time in the learning curve. Rob Simonich deserves the credit from all of us for his "push". We all get to enjoy the results of that "push". How else can the newer steels get attention if not for their claims of being "better" in "some" feature.

Some of us are collectors of the "unique and different". Some of us are "performance junkies". Each has our reasons for being attracted to the hi-tech stuff. That doesn't make older technology bad or inept.

some thoughts to share on the manufacturing end.

sal
 
I find myself of two minds about the new stuff. On one hand, the newest steels, 420V and 3V are quantum steps ahead in performance for uniformly heat treated blades.

I have had my 420V Ralph Apogee for over a year, it is my most frequent carry, and it has been almost that long since it has needed sharpening. A year of the usual cutting this and that, slicing up the recycling on weekends, opening packages, chopping up stuff in comparisons with other blades, and it still shaves. That's nutts.

On the other hand, differential heat treatment of a low-alloy steel can still produce a superbly performing blade, and if you get the added joy of a temper line, that is an esoteric pleasure that can be added in its favor. I am having three big fighters made right now, one a differentially heat treated 1084 bowie, one a 3V short sword, and the last a differentially tempered O-1 blade. I will be expecting super performance from all of them, and I don't think I will be disappointed. Comparing the edge durability on the 1084 blade to the 3V blade will be very interesting.

[This message has been edited by Steve Harvey (edited 06-21-2000).]
 
Great post. My take on it is this, and the standard disclaimer in this situation is to say that it is of course my humble opinion only, is as follows:

My grandfather gave me a good number of his knives, and the good ole carbon steel on the Kabars and Schrades he handed down are still capable of taking an edge I can't muster on most of my newer knives with ATS34 and others. The newer knives I own do, however, hold their edge longer and the blades seem to retain their form longer due to more resistance to wear. The other beauty to my BM's with ATS is that they require a lot less maintenance oxidation-wise than the older, more-frequently-used-in-days-of-old carbon and stainless steels, 440 included. There seems to be trade-offs with everything, though. The 440 on my Seki knives from the eighties seem to be less chip resistant than ATS.

The older knives' handle materials have, on the other hand, deteriorated to an extent that I doubt some newer G10 and carbon fiber handles and scales would.

My contention is this. Companies like Benchmade, Kershaw, and Spyderco offer the best of both worlds. They offer superior steels to even ATS34 (though ATS suits my needs just fine) at a price point that represents a "high-end user's" category. It's like a happy medium between custom knives, some of which I am afraid to use and enjoy because of their price, and low-end, inferior pieces that cut just fine but may not have the same life expectancy.

Benchmade happens to be my brand of choice, but there are plenty of medium to higher-end production knives that offer the same value.

You probably know all of this already; all of this is an understatement to many. Improvements are made every day in the realm of cutlery. One day, we'll probably be buying and using low-end knives (if legislature still permits, of course) that have some new, state of the art blade material that's not steel at all. Regardless of that, I'll still have some good ole steel-bladed BM's around that'll still be cutting just fine.

Professor.

[This message has been edited by Professor (edited 06-21-2000).]
 
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