Best or Boast

Though I am somewhat distracted by this most recent spate of linguistic legerdemain being perpetrated by Tom and Jerry in the hopes of making us believe that the two are actually friends
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, I think that Steve Harvey's post raises an interesting point.
Differential heat treating certainly demonstrates the versatility, and extends the usefulness of certain types of steel. But isn't it fair to say that this technique is, in fact, a method that was devised to try and compensate for the inherent limitations of the steel itself. Limitations as defined by the users and proponents of the steel. Again, I love the blades I own that are made out of the traditional high carbon steels, but I can't help but be impressed by the fact that even a properly differentially treated blade of 1084 or 1095, is hard pressed to match the performance of a uniformly treated blade of 3V, either at the spine or the edge.

Being one who appreciates the efforts of Crucible, Mission, Carbide Processors and the makers who have pioneered the use of their materials, I say let's give credit where credit is due.

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Semper Fi

[This message has been edited by Bronco (edited 06-21-2000).]
 
Bronco, you'd better explain that "linguistic legerdemain" term to Tom. He's a little slow, and his dictionary only gets to "C" these days. He used the rest to roll his own cigars.

I think you need to be careful when comparing the new super steels with the old standbys, like 1084 or 1095. The latter are often forged, and are much changed from the steel that came in the barstock. Forging changes all the rules. I learned from Crucible today that a couple folks are beginning to forge 3V. I don't know if CPM steels will benefit from grain refinement as will normal steels, but it sure sounds intriguing.

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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com

[This message has been edited by GaKnife (edited 06-21-2000).]
 
Bronco :

even a properly differentially treated blade of 1084 or 1095, is hard pressed to match the performance of a uniformly treated blade of 3V, either at the spine or the edge.
Click to expand...

At a given RC of 3V, you can soften 1084 until its toughness is similar, and the 1084 will be much weaker. You can also harden 1084 until its strength is equal to 3V and the 1084 will be much more fragile. Even with this done the edge will be more brittle and the whole blade weaker because of the soft spine (not to mention the lower point durability or strength). In addition you will not get the same cutting action (edge will need to be more reinforced and the carbide structure is not as aggressive) or edge life or corrosion resistance.

Jerry, people have been forging CPM steels for some time. Phil Wilson has heat treated at least one in CPM-10V. I think Will York owns that particular blade.

-Cliff
 
Jerry,
Since Tom is a resident of Hawaii, I'm wondering if we should try and refrain from speculating about exactly what plant material is used in those cigars?
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As Cliff mentioned, Will York has owned for some time a 10V blade that was forged by Rick Dunkerley. I'm not aware of any 3V forged blades, but I'd love to hear about them if they exist.

I'm not sure that this would even be an improvement if it were possible, but does anyone know if you could do a differential heat treat on 3V?

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Semper Fi

[This message has been edited by Bronco (edited 06-22-2000).]
 
Darrel Ralph does a differential heat treat on 420V (S90V), and Bos has done it on ATS-34. I would assume you could do it on 3V if you wanted. If would be interesting to have the edge in the 60 RC region and draw the rest back, but only by a little say mid fifties, which would allow a huge impact toughness increase but not a significant strength loss.

-Cliff
 
I think we may be on to something here, Cliff.
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Semper Fi
 
I agree that differential heat treat changes the rules to the game.

Sean McWilliams has been heat treating
CPM-S60V ( CPM-440V) for at leat 10 years. He produces excellent permorming pieces.

If the comparisons go into forging, then exotics like Wootz back to Chronidor 30, etc. We can reach no conclusions about the technical differences between old and new steels. All good. just different.

If the standard heat treat methods are used, then testing is possible and measureable.

sal

 
I think I'd have to ask what you're gaining with the differential heat treat of 3V, if it's possible. You might pick up a point or two on the edge, but at Rc58-59 3V is super tough and very wear resistant. Unless you're using it as a prybar, the greatest impacts are to the edge, where you're likely to want that toughness over a little bit more wear resistance.

Forging is a different issue altogether, unrelated to differential heat treating.

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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
 
Even as I originally posed the question, my feeling was that if a differential heat treat for 3V were possible, we'd probably only be talking about a few points difference at most from spine to edge (in contrast to what we often see with 1095, etc.)

What about a 3V camp, utility, and (though I hate to use this nebulous term) survival blade with an edge at 59 or 60, and a spine at say 56 or 57? Obviously the point of this would be to have a blade with all the edge toughness and edge retention of the current 3V blades, plus additional toughness and durability throughout the remainder of the blade.

Now before anyone detaches a retina rolling their eyes in disbelief at this suggestion, let me just state for the record my understanding that in practical terms, the added time and expense to do a diff heat treat on 3V might far outweigh any advantages gained. But by the same token, if I announced to the forum at large that I had a blade that was a better all around performer than one of uniformly heat treated 3V, I bet a lot of folks would stand up and take notice. After all, what fun's the envelope if you can't push it?

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Semper Fi

[This message has been edited by Bronco (edited 06-22-2000).]
 
Everything I have read about 3V makes it sound just short of miraculous, but I haven't cut anything with a 3V blade myself yet, so I have to reserve judgement. I have heard of miraculous properties from forged 52100 blades too. My intuition, based on the performance of Darrel Ralph's 420V blades is that 3V is as good as it is reputed to be. I am just about convinced that a differentially heat treated, low alloy blade will not be as uniformly strong as a uniformly heat treated, and cryo quenched CPM3V steel blade. But 3V is so new that I just don't think we know everything about it yet. It is hard to see how even a master smith is going to get edge holding like D-2, and toughness better than 5160 out of the same bar of 52100, as 3V is reputed to do.
 
You could write a book on this debate and still everyone wouldn't agree on the outcome.
I personally like the old standards like O1, D2 and 440C.
Nothing wrong with the new technology either.
 
Volumes and volumes have been written on the best new/old steel (or steel substitute) and still it goes on. If your cutting a box your in one world, If your in a jungle envirnment your in another. Each steel has its best uses and no steel is the magic answer to every situation. Diferential heat treating is another ball of wax, as is the forged blade. An RC of 59-60 on a stain resistant folder is a good acceptable norm but that hardness is not worth a crap on a flat ground carbon steel bowie/hunter. (chipsville here we come). The semi-annual cutting competition at the ABS blade school is designed to test overall performance of large fixed blades in the environment they are likely to be used. Testing done here on the Blade Forum uses a seperate criteria. Which is best? That depends on how your going to use the knife. All marketing methods aside, the intended use of the knife must dictate the materiel and construction.

If you will decide what your needs are before you purchase the knife you'll be a lot more satisfied with what you get.

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old pete
 
To me it really does not matter, old fashioned or new, I love knives of all types.

As far as value is concerned I think todays knives offer great value for the money.
 
We shouldn't forget that no steel is the best at everything. Every time the alloy is modified there are compromises-trade offs. We gain improvements in one parameter and lose something in others. There is no best steel. There may be a best steel for a certain application but certainly there isn't a universally best steel. There is always a more "fashionable" steel but that doesn't make it best or even better.

There are pet or favorite steels (I like damascus personally) but that isn't a very good qualitative measure either.

Sometimes I think the knife business thrives on "hit" steels the way the music business thrives on the top 40. It's entertaining for me. Take care.

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Fred
Knife Outlet
http://www.knifeoutlet.com
 
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