best steel to learn heat treating?

L

Lukthree

Joined
Jul 25, 2008
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My woodworking and metalworking skills are well developed but i'm new to bladesmithing, I've just finished building this forge

http://64.176.180.203/washtubforge.htm
(using a hair dryer instead of the hand crank)

what is an easy/forgiving steel (preferrably high carbon) to start with when learning about heat treating? Also if anyone can point me to some reliable tutorials i would be greatful :)

also, is the concept of heat treating most carbon steels generally the same? just different temperatures? for instance, they all follow the same basic formula? heat until non-ferrous, quickly cool (air/water/oil), reheat to desired hardness (straw colored for most knives). So with most carbon steels i can follow this formula i just need to figure out which type of quenching it will tolerate? I have some unknown tool steel billets that i would like to use

Thanks guys!
 
A suggestion. On my first coal fired forge I used a hair dryer. I was burning them up rather quickly, until it was suggested to me that I take out the heating coils and run it with just the fan. They lasted a lot longer without the heating coils in them. Hair dryers last a lot longer when they run cold.
 
I would suggest 1080/84 to get started. No, all steel is not the same, and have to be HT'd differently. The 10XX series are about the same except for 1095, which must have a very fast quench. The other 10XX's need it, but you can get by with a goop quench in most cases. Many tool steels require a prolonged soak before quench. 01, 5160,6150, require a prolonged soak with a slow quench oil. You need to do some research into basic metallurgy, and heat treating before you get stated, if you want to do it right. Uncle Joe's saturday afternoon, backyard smithing seminars, ain't the place to get the right info. This forum has a lot of good info in the menu section, and sticky's, and you will find tutorials that can help in many different areas. No, you do not quench as soon as you hit non-magnetic. It needs to soak a little, and take on a little higher heat. Go through the archives, and read everything you can find posted by Kevin Cashen, and Mete'. They are the HT, and metallurgy wizards. Bladesmith also.
 
I would strongly recommend using 1080 or 1084 as a first step in learning heat treatment especially if all you have is a makeshift forge. With these steels the only things you have to worry about are not overheating and a having fast quench. Some other steels need things like long soak times and can actually air harden when you don’t want them to harden, making it very hard to drill wholes and sand/grind. If you use 1080 or 1084 the fine folks here on BF should be able to help you make sure you have been successful in your heat treatment. To make a long story short NO they are not all the same If you over generalize you will not know what is happening to the steel and my find yourself very frustrated.

Good luck
 
1095, 1080/1084 all respond very quickly to the various thermal cycles and heat treatment, but 1080/1084 has more manganese making it much easier to get full hardness when quenched, so like others I recommend 1080/1084.
 
LRB said:
Uncle Joe's saturday afternoon, backyard smithing seminars, ain't the place
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hey, my name is uncle joe, and i teach a saturday afternoon backyard smithing class, and i resemble that remark......just kidding.....some great info here...1084 +1
 
Well, it acually wouldn't be too bad to attend, as long as the adult beverages are in adequate quantities. Macon ain't too far away.
 
Alright thanks, where is a good place to order 1080/1084 online? or should i just check a local machinist shop? Also, for the unknown steel i already have, do you think its worth even messing with if i dont know exactly what it is? I have enough that i can do multiple test heatings/quenches if i need to, but i would like to use some of it since i have a lot already.
 
O1 needs a 10+ minute soak at temperature if you intend to get the most out of the steel. If you don't intend to, why not use 1080/1084? Unless you're buying drill rod, you pay a premium for O1 since it is precision ground. Seems like a waste if you're not going to put the extra work into heat treating.
 
what is so great about precision ground? and what does it mean? what about cold rolled? and will 1084 produce a decent blade when heat treated right? I dont want to spend a lot of time making a beautiful knife out of poor steel, so should i just pump out a few junkers to get learning or will it turn out to be a good knife?
 
I teach new smiths with 1084.

Aldo Bruno, in the "For Sale" forum, has excellent 1084 for sale.

While the temptation is great, avoid "mystery" steel and found items in the beginning, when learning to do HT. Once forging and HT are mastered, then you can experiment.

Unless you move on to stainless steels, you may never have a need to use any other steel than 1084. There have been several good threads on this steel, so I won't repeat the old info.

Read all the posts by Kevin Cashen on HT ( and HT in general). We have had some lengthy discussions of the pros and cons of most of the Heat Treating procedures.
You can find them best with a Bladeforums Google (not the search function on this page).
http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=011197018607028182644:qfobr3dlcra

I highly recommend getting a good book on Metallurgy and Heat Treatment.
Two choices (there are many others) are:
Metallurgy Theory and Practice ( good learning book)
Heat Treaters Guide (This is the HT Bible,put out by the ASM - not cheap, but invaluable)

Stacy
 
Precision ground flat stock didn't come about with us in mind, it's for fabricators who need the precision and can't/won't do it in-house. It's surface or blanchard ground steel that is as near to perfectly flat and square as you can get. PG is always clean and always flat, so if you have an application or environment that requires one or both of those characteristics out of the box then it makes sense to buy. If you're making folding knives, precision ground steel is a plus because it makes things easier to keep true, if you're making fixed blade knives the advantage erodes.

1084 is a fine knife steel and nothing to be ashamed of. Cold rolled or hot rolled, it doesn't really matter imo. As Stacy said, do a google search of BF about the steel and the heat treatment.
 
marekz said:
what about o-1 for beginers? thats not to demanding is it? thanks
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Due to its tendency to harden to some degree no matter what you quench it in a lot of people will tell you that O-1 is a good beginer steel. If you heat it to 1475F or better and quench in virtually any liquid you will make an acceptable knife from it, however there is a significant difference between acceptable and really good or optimal. Without proper and precise soaks you will only unlock perhaps 60% of the steels potential while paying perhaps three times as much. 1084 at much less cost will make a knife that will get 80% or better of the steels potential even with simple tools as long as you quench it fast.

If the purpose is learning the best methods of heat treatment with simpler tools 1084 wins hands down. In simple environments it will go into solution the quickest, without any issues from the undissolved stuff and on cooling it will either make pearlite or martensite making it a simple pass-fail instead of a confusing bell curve by which to judge success. This will be invaluable in troubleshooting your process at a glance.
 
All this information has been very helpful guys thanks so much.

birdog4, I live about 10 min outside of State College
 
im surprised no one is really rooting for 5160, i have used it since i started making. i quench in used motor oil, temper to straw at 420* in my kitchen, and sometimes draw more temper on the spine. 5160 has always pleased me, passing the file test, staying very sharp, and i have yet to break a blade, and yes, i abuse a few of mine... am i missing something or is 5160 comparable to 1084 for beginner success...
-Lou
 
I think some of you didn't catch Lukethree's desire to LEARN HEAT TREATING RIGHT.
With O-1 you can get it hard to some degree, but it may not be done right?
With 5160, it may not break, but is it in proper solution and fully hardened?
With 1095, you can pull your hair until you look like Aldo, and still may not get it right for a while.

With 1084, the eutectiod, it is a simple process of reaching the austenitization point, then cooling it down to the martensitic conversion point fast enough to avoid pearlite. As Kevin said - you either did or you didn't. Now that will teach you proper HT procedures.
Stacy
 
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