"BEST" steel types?

TomWalz, Actually Stellite 6K has more carbon in it than Talonite not the reverse as you stated. In fact it has 0.5% more Carbon in it. It also appears to be harder than the talonite even though it is not. They both Rc at around 45 to 48, but the edge on my stellite blade seems to outlast my talonite on soft materials. I have not tried hard materials. I think the difference is minor from what I can tell in the limited cutting I have recently done.

Stellite has been around a very long time, since the early 1900's. However, it didn't become a knife blade material until the late 70's when some knife makers started buying stellite for making small runs of knives. Mike Franklin use to make a lot of knives. Kit Carson was making stellite blades before Talonite ever came out.

As of yet there is no proof as to your statement that talonite makes a better blade material. In fact, cliff has tested both and stellite came off better than talonite.

Blademan 13, the stellite used in industrial applications is not 6K or even 6B, it is another derivative that has been around longer that has hardness' up to Rc of the 80-90 range. The stellite used for knives is not suitable for those industrial applications and neither is talonite.

Stellite is slightly harder to grind than talonite, but the finish on the talonite is much rougher than the stellite and more finishing is required. So the break even in grinding/finishing time.

I think these materials are the ultimate tradeoff in maximum corrosion resistance and wear resistance. There are steels out there that are tougher or may hold an edge as long or longer, but the extreme corrosion resistance is worth the extra money in my opinion.

Iron makes these materials magnetic, if only slightly. The iron is 3% if i'm not mistaken.
 
Walt, just cut and paste, like so...

Talonite®

I have a word document of certain symbols I find useful
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James Segura
San Francisco, CA
 
Um, Cobalt, I'm going to have to go with Tom on this one. Take a look at his profile
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Also, the Iron in Talonite, etc, is not waht makes them magnetic. Cobalt is very magnetic, in-and-of-itself. A lot of those tiny but powerful magnets are Cobalt-based. Materials that stick to magnets like Iron are called 'ferrous' not 'magnetic.' 'Magnetic' has to do with how the material reacts to and alters a varying magnetic field into which it is placed. The metal detector in the airport works by emmitting a low-frequency magnetic field, then seeing what happens to it. The more magnetic material present, the more the field is altered, and when that alteration passes a certain point (to allow for some amount of change, etc.), the alarm goes off. Those metal detectors you use on the beach which can differentiate between precious metals and iron work by detecting both magentic materials in general, and ferrous materials as well; if a material is magentic, but not ferrous, the detector says it's a precious metal; if a material is both magnetic and ferrous, the detector says it's junk.

Well, Tom, if no one else has claimed it so far, I would be more than happy to take you up on your incredibly generous offer. I would love to get a Talonite dive knife of some sort, since virtually the only place I don't have a knife is in the shower, and I think that should change (okay, so they were right about knives being contagious...), but I would like to see how it performs, first. mayeb I'll see how many linear feet of soap it can slice...
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--JB

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e_utopia@hotmail.com
 

Well, you got me wanting talonite now. If I compile all the negative information, and keep repeating that, I thought I might not want it at all.

Talonite can be good, still lasts the price and the working of it. And, (I do psychology) it is a hype. Let's just face it. There are things out there that cut even better, but are just not made for knives. But, I've learned some things too. Never over-judge anything (that goes for you talonite-guys
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), and never underestimate anything too (goes for me
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). And test first. Good point.

Still, how about edge rolling on a beercan? I read that somewhere. And since I like thin edges.....

Can anyone in the USA check how much talonite costs and how much it costs for you to send it here? If someone of you people send it as private persons, I loose the 21.8% inport tax.

greetz & thanks, Bart.
 
Tom,
I'm willing to play with TaloniteR knife
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I'll perform some cutting tests on different materials. As benchmark knife I'll try to select a piece from my collection with comparable blade length and edge geometry.
I will not perform any tests proving or denying some use knife is not designed for like prying, pounding or chopping (maybe light chopping only depending on tested knife configuration).
I'll not perform any destructive tests also. Anything one man could made another always would be able to destroy, this doesn't require any proving
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I'll describe here as objective results as I'll be able to obtain and my subjective impressions also.

My only condition is - I want to write independently, without concerns to offend you with my opinion if it would be different from yours. Recently I have had some sad experience with certain knifemaker who was fairly offended when I asked him to comment some privately obtained data different from his advertising slogans. I didn't make any publication, it was private chat only...

So, if you are accepting this condition - let's play this game
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To be honest I must say: currently I'm sure that Talonite, Stellite and similar alloys are designed intentionally for heavy duty industrial cutting tools utilizing far thicker cutting edges than knives, drill bits for ex. In this case something like self-sharpening effect could be observed because relatively soft matrix is worn out exposing more and more hard carbide cutting particles. This may work in knife thin edge or may not. I would be glad to check it in my own experience to prove or deny some my theoretic issues.


------------------
Sergiusz Mitin
gunwriter
Lodz, Poland
 
Eutopia, you are correct of course. I was thinking of ferrous magnetism. I'm glad you comented on one minor point of that entire post. Hopefully, you read the rest of it. When you state you have to go with Tom, does that mean you disagree with the rest of it? If you have read the specs for both materials you will see Stellite has more carbon in it. If you have read cliffs tests, you will see that stellite lasted longer. I like both materials and have both, but don't want people to get the wrong impression. If I had to go with one, it would be talonite due to lower cost of material. If I had to pick the best edge holder, I would say stellite 6K would take it at a much higher cost.
 
OK, I can't stand being good any longer. The following is my opinion only, and is not intended for mature audiences.
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There are too many variables to solve the equation.

If you were to take 10 different steels and grind them into identical blades with identical edges, which probably is impossible, you would likely get the wrong answers about any single parameter you are trying to measure.

In my experience, each steel has its own individual qualtities that are only realized by optimizing the grind and edge to that steel and the particular parameter (intended application) being measured. Everything else is a compromise.

It would require a very complex experiment just to define which of the 10 steels would cut fibers best, since all 10 blades would need to be optimized individually for fibers, then that data would be meaningless with respect to cutting any other medium. Even then, there would be intrafiber variances.

I believe you need to pick your steel for the broad catalog of tasks you are going to ask of it, vigorously exclude all other tasks, then design the knife and its edge with the fewest possible compromises necessary to achieve those tasks.

BTW, one consequence of this approach is that you necessarily include/exclude certain makers for each of the tasks, since all are most skilled at only certain designs and blade geometries. The operative word there was "most". Some makers can do just about anything, but they are all "best" at just some of those. Soooo... The smorgasbord grows and grows, the variables pile upon variables, and the steel question remains and probably will remain unanswered.

In the end, just do what feels good. It's your money, enjoy it!



------------------
Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
 
Tom :

Steel can reasonably be considered as iron carbides in an iron matrix. How readily the carbides are removed depends on many things especially the quality of the matrix. An iron matrix is generally poorer at holding the carbides and thus dulling than a cobalt / chrome matrix.
Click to expand...

Excellent point Tom, this is something I have wondered about and something I intended to look at in detail but forgot about. Based on some initial work it seemed to me that Talonite's high ductilty and toughness combined with the high wear resistance would make for a good blade in gritty material. I think that will probably be the next serious thing I will look at.


I would like to see much more formal testing
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Could you be more specific? Do you want machine based tests?

-Cliff
 
Sorry about that. I was referring to the carbon content. I did read the data sheets a while back, but I can't remember the info. Given who Tom is, though, I would have to defer to him as to the carbon content. If you want to post a link to the data sheets, I'd be happy to take a look. I don't own a blade of either Stellite or Talonite, so I can't comment on the cutting ability of either.

Jerry, I think you hit the nail on the head. Unless someone wants to expend muchos dinero to buy materials and equipment, there would be no way to make enough tests to clamp down on all the various variables. You would need many blades of each material in groups, each group with slightly different geometry and/or hardness from any other group, and enough blades within each group to test one blade (at least) per material. That ends up being a lot of blades, and a lot of expense. I think we could nail down the variables, but it would be a huge undertaking.

--JB

------------------
e_utopia@hotmail.com
 
Eutopia, I don't have the links, but I do know that we have discussed this here and on knifeforums a lot along with specs. But in my opinion if these materials are as good as ATS-34 or thereabouts, they are as good as they have to be considering the corrosion resistance. What I would like to know myself is how these materials react in a good large blade chopper style knife. To my knowledge only one person has really used a big stellite/talonite blade and he was impressed by it. By the way, there are no listed charpy values for Stellite 6K. There charpy values for Stellite 6B and I'm not sure if there are any for Talonite.
 
STELLITE 6K and TALONITE Chemical Comp.

Element %
Co balance
Ni 3 max
Si 2 max
Fe 3 max
Mn 2 max
Cr 28 - 32
Mo 1.50 max
W 3.5 - 5.5
C .9 - 1.4(For Talonite and Stellite 6B)
C 1.9(For Stellite 6K)
 
Cobalt :

What I would like to know myself is how these materials react in a good large blade chopper style knife. To my knowledge only one person has really used a big stellite/talonite blade and he was impressed by it.
Click to expand...

There are multiple reports of such blades failing, they are just not commonly posted. There was reference to it in one of the MD threads least year where a poster blew pieces out of a Talonite blade chopping, had it profiled by the maker to strengthen the edge and repeated the chopping and blew the pieces out again.

-Cliff
 
Cliff, that must have been when I was away for a while. Rob C. I think had a big Stellite 6K knife that he abused and it never failed him. It was made by Kit C.

These materials are supposed to be fairly tough, especially with the low Rc's. Somewere in a cutsheet, I have the Charpy value of Stellite 6B and if I'm not mistaken it is pretty high compared to regular steels. Talonite should be the same.
 
They are decently tough which is why it surprised me at first. However after working with various Cobalt based blade alloys I think what happens is that they get deformed past the plastic limit. They would actually need to be stronger and toughner than steels in order to handle the same blade geometry as they are heavier and thus impacts would be more stressful on them.

The Talonite blade I have is very small and chopping with it is fine because of its low weight and neutral balance. I think I might get an extension put on the handle and do some hacking with it and see how it holds up to a decent steel blade when used in the same manner.

-Cliff
 
Burke,
Sappy? - Hardly! - It takes a lot of guts to try something new. Add Jim Furgal, President of Camillus. The Talonite® Cuda is a huge success and Jim looks smart now but it took a lot of guts to make the commitment.

Dear Walt,
Forgive me again. I was afraid that someone brand new to the group might briefly consider that you had made a mistake when, to those of us who know you, the whole notion of you being less than perfect in any way is as shocking as being told that there is no Santa Claus.

Cobalt
Very intelligent comments, as usual.

1. W claim that Talonite® makes a superior knife because knife owners and users think so. Rob and I agreed one that the only test that meant anything to us was whether the user liked the knife.

2. I just pulled a sheet out of the drawer. The first one I found lists 45 kinds of Haynes alloys so your comment about them being different is entirely accurate and perhaps a bit understated. We also sell different alloys under the family name Talonite® which adds to the confusion. Then you get into manufacturing processes and post-processing.

Having said that, I am out of the "which is the perfect alloy" discussions permanently.
We will be very happy to cooperate with any and all testing that validly helps a knife purchaser learn what they are buying and what it can and cannot do.

3. By Magnet susceptibility we mean the definitions and measurements in the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics. By this definition everything has some sort of a magnetic property either negative or positive. Either one can be detected in a field. It also takes the position that iron may be magnetically responsive as iron but alloying the iron may make it lose its magnetic susceptibility. There are lots of definitions for magnetism but this I where we start.

e_utopia
1. Your explanation is a clearer version of what I was trying to say about magnetism. .
2. I just ordered the knife from Bladeforums. It takes about a week to get here. Will two weeks give you enough time to test it? I am getting a long list of people who want to try it.
3. Two things have come up. A. Test it all you want but leave it in good shape for the next person. B. Yes, I realize that there is the possibility that sooner or later someone will keep the knife.

Bart student
1. Contact Rob Simonich at Simonich knives for information on Talonite or get a Talonite(r) Cuda from a Camillus dealer. Camillus is a very high integrity company and will not go around the dealers. They require that I buy my Talonite® Cudas retail.

2. About your use of the term "hype" - Webster defines it as: 1. to deceive or con, 2. to promote in a sensational way. As for definition #1, try the knife, if you like it then buy it. I can't see where the deception or con is in that. 2. Sensational promotion - O.K. this may be true. Rob and I have both spent a lot of money getting Talonite(r) into the hands of knife makers and knife users. I am going to loan an expensive knife out to strangers around the world in hopes they will buy one and send the original back. That is pretty sensational in this industry but I don't think it should be. I think it ought to go as part of a set with a Stellite(r) knife, a CPM knife, and ATS-34 knife, a ceramic knife and any other knife anyone thinks is worth testing.

Sergiusz Mitin
1. Re your comment: "My only condition is - I want to write independently, without concerns to offend you with my opinion if it would be different from yours." The knife users are a real darned independent group. We always make the assumption that they will be honest. Please feel to say whatever you think important. 1. We truly want people to know what they are buying. 2. We want to know what would make a knife better so we can direct our research. In all honesty, I do not like negative comments any more than anyone else but I do like truth and honesty in reporting. (Example: I love my children. Occasionally one hurts my feelings. It is a very small price to pay for a much greater good.) 3. Besides it is a really good knife.

2. So, if you are accepting this condition - let's play this game. Yes, of course, maybe a month to get it to you. You are number 2 on the list.

3. The alloys did come from an industrial background. Haynes had a car company. We are big in industrial saws, tools and knives. Many, many things have come from a heavy industrial background and been very successful consumer products.

4. We have some other alloys you might want to test. Contact Rick Hinderer
rick@lorickprecision.com

GaKnife
Again, someone has said what I was trying to say and said it better.

Cliff Stamp
1. Thank you for kind remark. Coming from someone with your expertise I am indeed flattered.

2. Re: "Could you be more specific? Do you want machine based tests?" I don't know. I would like some sort of a formal methodology that can be done by machines in labs that will give a knife user information they can really use. That's as far as I get in this.
 
Tom, please don't take what I stated the wrong way. You know as well as I do, that there is no perfect steel or alloy, only materials more suited for certain conditions than others and compromises. Too heavy, and we get ungainly, too light(as in Ti blades) and you can't chop worth a crap, to much edge holding and you can't sharpen it easily and it is usually more brittle, to soft and it dulls with the first cut and bends at relatively low stress levels, too little alloy and it rusts quicker than spit, too much alloy and toughness can suffer. Dammm too many factors, that's for sure.

I like talonite and stellite because it is what titanium will never be, a truly corrosion resistant material that holds a good enough edge to be compared with steels like D-2 and ATS-34. Titanium could never be compared to these steels in edge holding. To expect miracles of any alloy is expecting too much. Not even nitinol is what many thought it would be. I busted a nitinol blade last year in three pieces with very little force.

As one last comment I value your opinion and comments and enjoy reading what you have to say, so I hope that you continue posting and spreading some of your knowledge around.
 
Tom, you have mail. To address you post:

1. Glad that helped; us engineers often have trouble explaining things simply, huh? luckily, I spent some time teaching in a junior high school, so I have some experience in translating from engineer to English.

2. No problem here.

3. A. Yup, when I was just a young-un (okay, so I'm still fairly young compared to a lot of you), my father taught me to respect tools (eg, 'that's a screwdriver, it's for putting screws into things; that's a chisel, it's for removing wood; the two aren't interchangeable'). I won't try to puncture any car doors or whatnot
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B. As I said in the email, I think you'll find that most all of us knife knuts are good about things like this. Plus, if someone keeps the knife, you have their address, so...

--JB

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e_utopia@hotmail.com
 
We got us a deal. I received your email and will ship to you as soon as I get it. The writer is next.

How much soap can a knife guy cut if a knife guy would cut soap.

I agree about knife people. Some have expressed reservations but we'll try it anyway.

Tom
 
Thanks Tom!
I have a month or so on to think out some unusual and sophisticated tortures for your knife
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I'll think hard...
 
Tom :

I would like some sort of a formal methodology that can be done by machines in labs that will give a knife user information they can really use. That's as far as I get in this.
Click to expand...

I would like the same, with the addition that it be easy for duplication outside of labs - with more pronounced variance of course, but acceptable results. This is far harder than a machine based set of tests, but more meaningful overall I think. It is something that I have been trying to work out for some time now. The problem is that there are a lot of factors that can influence cutting.

For example, take a simple action - point a piece of Pine, 2" square, center the point in the wood and have the point 1" long. That seems like a pretty determined task that should give consistent results, correct? Actually no it doesn't. I wish it would though, as I have found it benchmarks a blade push cutting ability very well - and I have lots of wood to cut up.

Consider the force of the cut - the first thing I tried was using really low force. Problem is that none of the knives penetrated really well and thus the results were dependent mainly on the bevel angle (and sharpness and polish but everything depends on that). I could get consistent runs, but I didn't think they were realistic as no one would actually cut up wood like that.

Next I tried a medium amount of force, this was much better as the slices were deeper and the thickness behind the bevel started to become a factor and the thinner blades pulled ahead strongly. Problem is though, one month from now will I use the same amount of "medium" force? Probably not. Hard to remember that kind of thing.

Next I tried full force. This worked much better. I could get constant results even when I repeated the work weeks later and as the cuts grew deeper the primary bevel became a factor so I could study how that effected cutting performance. Problem here is that with low performance knives fatigue is a huge problem. If it takes 5-10 cuts to make a point I can do all of these are very near my full strength. If it takes 50-75 the last cuts are far weaker than the first and thus the poor performing blades do not index well when you look at their geometry as my heavy fatigue rate really brings them down. But then again, as pure commentary on that knife, it is relevant as fatigue is a real factor when performance drops.

That is just the force, there is also type of wood, you can get huge variances because of the type of wood. For example, really obtuse edge profiles need a high angle of attack in order for the bevels to bite into the wood. This is offset by your ability to compress the wood - this varies across woods obviously. So on soft woods an abtuse bevel will performly relatively higher (as compared to a common index) than they will on really hard woods because they can't compress them at all - and really perform horribly on harder materials (plastics - metals).

There are also lots of factors which can influence the results aside from the edge geometry. For example, harder woods generate more feedback to you hand so ergonomics and security can be very critical. The distance from the center of your grip to the edge doing the cutting is also a significant factor in the amount of force you need to generate to overcome the force the wood exerts on the blade (the further away the more force you need, a large choice will greatly reduce the blades ability to slice wood).

One way to elimate many considerations is to just use many different methods and just combine them all for one average performance. This I think would be the most meaningful anyway for most people. Anyway, if you ever work out a solid system Tom let me know.

-Cliff


[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 06-27-2000).]
 
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