I've been looking to get a set of waterstones. I've seen Jason B and others recommend Shapton Glass stones a few times on here, I looked into them & those are what I'm leaning towards. I have a few knives in S110v, ZDP189 to S35vn & VG10, and some kitchen knives in Aogami Super & Blue #2. I've been using oil stones & Sand paper with pretty good results to sharpen most of my knives, the only stone I currently have that will sharpen my S110v knives is a Norton Crystolon & the low grit sand paper does a ok job with it also but the higher grits don't seem to want to cut it. Before I make an order I have a few questions, First will the Shapton GS work well with S110v and similar steels? I know I'll need a diamond plate to flatten them so I was looking at the Atoma 140 as I figured I could use that to set bevels as well. Will they also work well with the carbon steels I have? Looking to get 3-4 stones that I can keep all my knives sharp with. I'm open to whatever will work best with the steels I have so if you know of other stones you think will work better I'll look into them. And answers & info will be helpful and greatly appreciated.
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Best waterstones for sharpening S110v?
- Thread starter Tony18
- Start date
Wrote this earlier in another thread about the Spyderco Paramilitary 2 in CPM-S110V steel:
To get the most out of high vanadium carbide steels you need abrasives that are able to cut & shape the carbides themselves, which in commonly available materials leaves only CBN and diamond.
For both maximum sharpness & edge retention you want a row of actually shaped & sharpened carbides in your edge, not just a row of whole carbides (which will do for coarser edge types, but they simply work better when sharp.)
The other materials you mention will most certainly plough through the matrix and push the vanadium carbides out of the way, but due to their lack in hardness they are physically unable to refine those carbides.
Take a look at the bottom of this page for a list of materials and their Knoop hardness:
https://www.tedpella.com/Material-Sciences_html/Abrasive_Grit_Grading_Systems.htm
What works for me when i want a (semi-) coarse edge on S110V steel and the like is to use silicon carbide (220 grit Paper Wheel and/or 1000 grit Tormek Blackstone) to create the bevels, then jump to a fine diamond compound (1 micron on a Paper Wheel) to remove the burr.
This provides me with the edge irregularities (or teeth if you want) for that coveted slicing aggression, and which also have actual sharpened vanadium carbides in the apex.
For a more polished edge on S110V steel and the like i refine the results of the silicon carbide with various diamond compounds (in my case 15, 6, 3, and 1 micron on dedicated Paper Wheels)
For some time now i've also been experimenting with a Rubber Wheel coated with 230 grit diamond as a substitute for the 220 grit silicon carbide grit Paper Wheel, and although i still need to learn more about it, so far i like the results i'm getting with it.
To get the most out of high vanadium carbide steels you need abrasives that are able to cut & shape the carbides themselves, which in commonly available materials leaves only CBN and diamond.
For both maximum sharpness & edge retention you want a row of actually shaped & sharpened carbides in your edge, not just a row of whole carbides (which will do for coarser edge types, but they simply work better when sharp.)
The other materials you mention will most certainly plough through the matrix and push the vanadium carbides out of the way, but due to their lack in hardness they are physically unable to refine those carbides.
Take a look at the bottom of this page for a list of materials and their Knoop hardness:
https://www.tedpella.com/Material-Sciences_html/Abrasive_Grit_Grading_Systems.htm
What works for me when i want a (semi-) coarse edge on S110V steel and the like is to use silicon carbide (220 grit Paper Wheel and/or 1000 grit Tormek Blackstone) to create the bevels, then jump to a fine diamond compound (1 micron on a Paper Wheel) to remove the burr.
This provides me with the edge irregularities (or teeth if you want) for that coveted slicing aggression, and which also have actual sharpened vanadium carbides in the apex.
For a more polished edge on S110V steel and the like i refine the results of the silicon carbide with various diamond compounds (in my case 15, 6, 3, and 1 micron on dedicated Paper Wheels)
For some time now i've also been experimenting with a Rubber Wheel coated with 230 grit diamond as a substitute for the 220 grit silicon carbide grit Paper Wheel, and although i still need to learn more about it, so far i like the results i'm getting with it.
Jason B.
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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I would without doubt buy some diamond plates for anything with more than 4% Vanadium. As Kwackster has posted, nothing but diamond and CBN will properly shape the carbides.
That said, I do like my Shapton Glass stones for sharpening folders. I have sharpened most high end steels with them and didn't notice any lack of edge formation like I have noticed with other waterstones on high Carbide steels. They easily plow through steels like S35VN and ZDP but do show a slowing of cutting action on S90V and S110V, although still producing proper levels of sharpness for the stone used.
I have stopped them in their tracks with CPM-10V though. I can get the 500 to produce a decent edge although it feels like a 4000 grit edge once done with about the same polish. The Apex has all the characteristics of an abrasive that failed to do the job though, excessive burring, lacking keen sharpness, and as mentioned, an excessive polish for the grit level.
I would still recommend some Shapton Glass stones like the 500 and 2k but I would also recommend a Coarse DMT and a balsa strop with 1 micron diamond for your high wear resistant steels. That one diamond plate and strop can produce some wicked edges on high carbide steels and provide awesome cutting power.
That said, I do like my Shapton Glass stones for sharpening folders. I have sharpened most high end steels with them and didn't notice any lack of edge formation like I have noticed with other waterstones on high Carbide steels. They easily plow through steels like S35VN and ZDP but do show a slowing of cutting action on S90V and S110V, although still producing proper levels of sharpness for the stone used.
I have stopped them in their tracks with CPM-10V though. I can get the 500 to produce a decent edge although it feels like a 4000 grit edge once done with about the same polish. The Apex has all the characteristics of an abrasive that failed to do the job though, excessive burring, lacking keen sharpness, and as mentioned, an excessive polish for the grit level.
I would still recommend some Shapton Glass stones like the 500 and 2k but I would also recommend a Coarse DMT and a balsa strop with 1 micron diamond for your high wear resistant steels. That one diamond plate and strop can produce some wicked edges on high carbide steels and provide awesome cutting power.
Ya I've heard a lot of good things about the Shapton GS, and I think with them being a harder waterstone it will be easier to transition to them from what I'm used to.
Thanks for the recommendation I'm gonna get a set of Diamond stones to go with the Shapton glass, that should cover all the knives I currently have or get in the future. Do you have any expeirence with Atoma?
Thanks for the info it makes slit of sense & I now know why I haven't been getting the edges id like on my harder steels. The link was helpful to.
I'm gonna do just that & was thinking maybe get a few higher grit diamond plates to play around with & to also flatten the higher grit waterstones. Would you go with DMT or Atoma? I'm gonna get a separate strop for touching up my kitchen knives in Blue steel, would balsa & Diamond in say .5 micron be the way to go with them as well? Thanks a lot for the info & recommendations saves me from having to buy new sharpening equipment till I find what works the best.
No I have no experience with the Atoma stones. I hear good things though.
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The OP clearly stated "water stones" I was trying to offer some suggestions based on his original query. I don't love sigmas but my dad has two for chisels and they worked pretty well on some high vanadium and tungsten carbide pocket knife blades.
As far as "properly sharpening" these high alloy steels, I disagree with some of the requirements for stone hardness. We have gone round and round this numerous times and if Ankerson and Dave Martin show up they will offer clear proof of frighteningly sharp edges being "refined" with "soft" stones. The proof is in the pudding and the recipe is nothing new.
I am just a chef and only have one cpm s110v knife but have sharpened 10V, K390, m4,m2 on a variety of stones, plates, films, to the point of easily shaving hair. That is refined enough for me.
Russ
As far as "properly sharpening" these high alloy steels, I disagree with some of the requirements for stone hardness. We have gone round and round this numerous times and if Ankerson and Dave Martin show up they will offer clear proof of frighteningly sharp edges being "refined" with "soft" stones. The proof is in the pudding and the recipe is nothing new.
I am just a chef and only have one cpm s110v knife but have sharpened 10V, K390, m4,m2 on a variety of stones, plates, films, to the point of easily shaving hair. That is refined enough for me.
Russ
Jason B.
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To better understand why stones containing Quartz, Aluminum Oxide, and Silicon Carbide don't properly shape the Vanadium Carbides just look at the last chart on this page.
https://www.tedpella.com/Material-Sciences_html/Abrasive_Grit_Grading_Systems.htm
You can clearly see the Knoop hardness levels of Vanadium carbide is above all standard abrasives leaving diamond as the clear winner.
I've sharpened steels like S30V on simple stones that shouldn't work on that steel so please don't try and give some silly example like that. In those cases it's more about the lack of proper Heat Treatment and not the steel elements. I've Sharpened Kershaw S30V on King stones but give me that same steel from Strider or Shirogorov and I will grind my stone into a pile of mud before it sharpens that steel from those makers.
You might still make a sharp edge but take that same edge to a diamond plate and it will become sharper.
https://www.tedpella.com/Material-Sciences_html/Abrasive_Grit_Grading_Systems.htm
You can clearly see the Knoop hardness levels of Vanadium carbide is above all standard abrasives leaving diamond as the clear winner.
I've sharpened steels like S30V on simple stones that shouldn't work on that steel so please don't try and give some silly example like that. In those cases it's more about the lack of proper Heat Treatment and not the steel elements. I've Sharpened Kershaw S30V on King stones but give me that same steel from Strider or Shirogorov and I will grind my stone into a pile of mud before it sharpens that steel from those makers.
You might still make a sharp edge but take that same edge to a diamond plate and it will become sharper.
Makes perfect sense to me & helped me get a better understanding of what's going on with my edges. I have a few knives in S110v from spyderco & can get them to shave the hair on my arms off the Crstolon but no where near the shaving sharpness I can get my other knives to. I can't wait to see the edge I can get with diamonds.
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This is literally the exact use case for which Sigma Power Select II stones were designed. They are also great stones in general, in my opinion. Diamond plates certainly have their place, and some people prefer them for steels with high vanadium carbide contents, but personally I find they have too much of a tendency to form a large, ragged burr, whereas the relatively muddy SPS-II stones do a good job of keeping excessive burr formation in check.
bodog
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What about CBN and sintered ceramics?
https://www.google.com/search?q=sin...j6rJ1u3IAhUBaiYKHdvPDxM#imgrc=sPRmngorRpab1M:
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