Bevel wear?

L

Lazander

Joined
Sep 27, 2011
Messages
13
Hello this is my first post on this forum though I have lurked for quite a while.I am posting because I simply can't seem to find the answer anywhere else even through search on this forum and the community on this board has always been so knowledgeable,so here it is.Basically I have been sharpening my ka-bar Dozier and my vic sportsman II the same way for quite a while now yet recently this same method has gotten them to a point where they are almost as dull as the spine of the blade.I have no idea why, my guess is bevel wear or whatever it might be called I'm not too sure what the correct term is and it doesn't seem like anyone else has ever had this problem.If it is, is there anything I can do to fix this without having to send it to somebody? I don't have any grind wheels just a pull through that I no longer touch and smith's ccd4 sharpening system.So please can someone help me?
 
I would suspect that what you've got going on is that your cutting edge is getting very wide as you sharpen up into the blade a tad farther. You're going to need to spend some time and re-set your primary bevels at a lower angle, then put your edge back on. Not a big deal, just part of the natural sharpening life of every blade. It might be a tad challenging with that system, there's not a lot of grit there to play with. My first thought if you don't want to buy additional gear would be to use some wet-or-dry sandpaper on a glass backer to freehand it a bit. :)

sharpen4.jpg


I would suspect that's what you're running into, although some photos would greatly help in diagnosing the issue. :)
 
Grind wheels are bad, so get that out of your head right now. :D

Do you want super clean looking bevels?

Do you want it to look like factory grind or better?

If you live in Boston or close to it I'll put a good edge on for you.

Your post doesn't really make very much sense to me unless you are sharpening at an extremely obtuse angle, in which case you need to follow Komis advice.
 
Komitadjie's post and illustration sum it all up, in a nutshell. For blades that have a tapered grind, from the thicker spine down to the thin edge, it's inevitable that the edge will 'thicken' over time, with repeated sharpening at the same angle every time. Each time you sharpen, more of the thinner portion gets removed, and the edge 'migrates' up the primary grind, into thicker steel. Only time this would be an exception, is for blades of equal thickness from the spine down (as if a hacksaw blade, with a knife edge on it). As Komitadjie suggested, taking a lower angle on some wet/dry sandpaper on hard backing (like glass) would probably be the cheapest way to reset a more acute angle. You'll see the bevel on each side become wider, from the edge to the shoulder of the bevel, as you do this. Use a black marker to darken maybe 1/8" to 1/4" of the blade near the edge, so you can see where the metal is coming off as you work. Then, once you have a more acute bevel set, sharpen as normal from there on, according to your preference.
 
Komitadjie said:
I would suspect that what you've got going on is that your cutting edge is getting very wide as you sharpen up into the blade a tad farther. You're going to need to spend some time and re-set your primary bevels at a lower angle, then put your edge back on. Not a big deal, just part of the natural sharpening life of every blade. It might be a tad challenging with that system, there's not a lot of grit there to play with. My first thought if you don't want to buy additional gear would be to use some wet-or-dry sandpaper on a glass backer to freehand it a bit. :)

sharpen4.jpg


I would suspect that's what you're running into, although some photos would greatly help in diagnosing the issue. :)
Click to expand...

Thank you! this explanation certainly makes the most sense of what's going on.I will try to post pics but right now the only thing that I can take pics with is phone and it's camera certainly isn't the greatest.

Skimo said:
Grind wheels are bad, so get that out of your head right now. :D

Do you want super clean looking bevels?

Do you want it to look like factory grind or better?

If you live in Boston or close to it I'll put a good edge on for you.

Your post doesn't really make very much sense to me unless you are sharpening at an extremely obtuse angle, in which case you need to follow Komis advice.
Click to expand...

Roger that.What are grind wheels again?:) I live in NYC pretty close by idk if that's doable for you.I would still prefer to learn this myself just in case you know in case there isn't anyone else to do it but if I screw up horribly I'll consider sending em.I sharpen at 30 degrees or so and factory edge is good enough for me.Personally never had a need for hair whittling sharp.


Obsessed with Edges said:
Komitadjie's post and illustration sum it all up, in a nutshell. For blades that have a tapered grind, from the thicker spine down to the thin edge, it's inevitable that the edge will 'thicken' over time, with repeated sharpening at the same angle every time. Each time you sharpen, more of the thinner portion gets removed, and the edge 'migrates' up the primary grind, into thicker steel. Only time this would be an exception, is for blades of equal thickness from the spine down (as if a hacksaw blade, with a knife edge on it). As Komitadjie suggested, taking a lower angle on some wet/dry sandpaper on hard backing (like glass) would probably be the cheapest way to reset a more acute angle. You'll see the bevel on each side become wider, from the edge to the shoulder of the bevel, as you do this. Use a black marker to darken maybe 1/8" to 1/4" of the blade near the edge, so you can see where the metal is coming off as you work. Then, once you have a more acute bevel set, sharpen as normal from there on, according to your preference.
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Thank you for elaborating on the process more and adding in the tip about the sharpie.
 
Incidentally, if you're relatively new to the theory of sharpening, Lazander, this site HERE might be helpful for you. It's primarily directed at kitchen knives, but it does a rather good job of illustrating exactly what HAPPENS as a knife dulls, and lays out how to fix them in very simple terms. That's the page I sourced the illustration from. I can't view your images at work (they have Imageshack blocked on our internet for some weird reason) but I'll take a look when I get home. :)
 
Thanks again.Seems like it's going to be quite a read.Eager to hear your analysis of the state of my blades.
 
lazander, get you a piece of glass and some 3m wetordry sandpaper like komitadjie said and use that to sharpen your knives on. if you would like some help over the phone i'll be glad to give you a call and help you out. here is my email addy rje196021@gmail.com
 
richard j said:
lazander, get you a piece of glass and some 3m wetordry sandpaper like komitadjie said and use that to sharpen your knives on. if you would like some help over the phone i'll be glad to give you a call and help you out. here is my email addy rje196021@gmail.com
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Thanks for the offer.Any recommendations of what grit sandpaper to use? the Dozier is AUS8 steel and sak is sak steel.
 
Re: sandpaper for AUS-8/SAK

For either of those steels, I'd think anything around 400 grit should be fine, to start. Take it as high as you want, if you want to further refine or polish the bevel. 220 is very aggressive, and would remove steel fast, but it'll also put some heavy scratches on the blades. I don't think it's necessary for either of those relatively soft steels, especially on the smaller SAK.
 
i never go over 400 grit on anything i sharpen and i have guys tell me they shave with the knives or swords i sharpen for them. i do finish my edges off on the slotted paper wheel with medium grit white rouge applied to it.
 
Ok went out got 400 and 600 grit 3m sandpaper putting it on a piece of wood and going to go 15 degrees maybe less 6-10 passes each side with each grit, is that a good plan?
 
Lazander said:
Ok went out got 400 and 600 grit 3m sandpaper putting it on a piece of wood and going to go 15 degrees maybe less 6-10 passes each side with each grit, is that a good plan?
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For starters anyway, give that a try and see how it does. The important thing is to make sure you completely apex the edge with the new bevel (usually indicated by the formation of a burr). However many passes it takes, to get the job done, is what you need. Keeping it even & balanced is obviously important. So, repeat the 6-10 passes per side, until you see the edge is apexed. Watch the edge closely, with good light and magnification if at all possible. That'll help you see the apex/burr formation early, without overdoing it. I'm betting, on the SAK at least, it'll happen soon (small, thin blade and soft steel; it'll reshape quickly). In fact, for the SAK, I'd probably start with the 600 grit. It's aggressive enough for that one, and it'll allow you some more control over how much & how fast the metal comes off.
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
For starters anyway, give that a try and see how it does. The important thing is to make sure you completely apex the edge with the new bevel (usually indicated by the formation of a burr). However many passes it takes, to get the job done, is what you need. Keeping it even & balanced is obviously important. So, repeat the 6-10 passes per side, until you see the edge is apexed. Watch the edge closely, with good light and magnification if at all possible. That'll help you see the apex/burr formation early, without overdoing it. I'm betting, on the SAK at least, it'll happen soon (small, thin blade and soft steel; it'll reshape quickly). In fact, for the SAK, I'd probably start with the 600 grit. It's aggressive enough for that one, and it'll allow you some more control over how much & how fast the metal comes off.
Click to expand...

Actually the sak is the one I'm having the most trouble with lol.I got my dozier back up to an acceptable sharpness in 15 mins or so been spending an hour on the sak using the same method and it's like I'm just wasting time.It just refuses to smooth out and hiccups with every cut maybe the edge might have warped somewhere down the road, I hope not.There are just parts of the blade that are effortless to cut with and other parts that squeak on paper.
 
I got it! gonna need more time to get it done better and faster but glad I learned something that will help me prolong the use of my knives.Thank you so much everyone for your help!:)
 
Lazander said:
Actually the sak is the one I'm having the most trouble with lol.I got my dozier back up to an acceptable sharpness in 15 mins or so been spending an hour on the sak using the same method and it's like I'm just wasting time.It just refuses to smooth out and hiccups with every cut maybe the edge might have warped somewhere down the road, I hope not.There are just parts of the blade that are effortless to cut with and other parts that squeak on paper.
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The odd thing about sharpening SAK steel (the Victorinox variety, anyways) is, it's soft enough to sometimes be difficult. It's more 'ductile' than harder steels, so it's pretty easy to roll or even fold an edge over when sharpening. With a very aggressive grit, this steel can be thinned out & rolled over in nothing flat. Wouldn't surprise me, if this is what you're running into. I should've pointed out earlier, very light pressure always works better, especially with steel like this. If you ever have to re-bevel this one again, you might even start at an even higher grit, which slows the process down a little, and can give you a little more time to 'sneak up' on your sharp edge. At least a few people, including myself, have sometimes had trouble with it on ceramic rods (like a Sharpmaker), because the narrow point of contact makes the problem all the worse. Edge keeps rolling over or blunting with heavy pressure, so it seems as if it never gets sharp.

Lazander said:
I got it! gonna need more time to get it done better and faster but glad I learned something that will help me prolong the use of my knives.Thank you so much everyone for your help!:)
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Good work! :thumbup:
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
The odd thing about sharpening SAK steel (the Victorinox variety, anyways) is, it's soft enough to sometimes be difficult. It's more 'ductile' than harder steels, so it's pretty easy to roll or even fold an edge over when sharpening. With a very aggressive grit, this steel can be thinned out & rolled over in nothing flat. Wouldn't surprise me, if this is what you're running into. I should've pointed out earlier, very light pressure always works better, especially with steel like this. If you ever have to re-bevel this one again, you might even start at an even higher grit, which slows the process down a little, and can give you a little more time to 'sneak up' on your sharp edge. At least a few people, including myself, have sometimes had trouble with it on ceramic rods (like a Sharpmaker), because the narrow point of contact makes the problem all the worse. Edge keeps rolling over or blunting with heavy pressure, so it seems as if it never gets sharp.
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Yea I was using 400 on it for a while must've been removing too much steel.Switched to 600 and finished with one of the ceramic rods on the smith sharpener and it did the trick.I assume I only need to touch up on these edges once every week or month from now on like I normally do?
 
Lazander said:
Yea I was using 400 on it for a while must've been removing too much steel.Switched to 600 and finished with one of the ceramic rods on the smith sharpener and it did the trick.I assume I only need to touch up on these edges once every week or month from now on like I normally do?
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Touch it up whenever you think it can use it. As I mentioned earlier, very light pressure is the key. It works better anyway, and your edges will last a lot longer if you keep up a habit of light touch-ups, before it gets too dull again. If done fairly frequently, stropping is a great way to extend the life of a good edge, too. Might give that some thought, if you haven't already. :thumbup:
 
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