Bevels and Devils, Spines and Lines

[Scara]

So I've been discussing knife fighting stuff with a guy who knows his stuff and he's been helping me a lot with getting to know my kukris and learn more about knife-fighting in general, though kukris are not his favorites. One thing he commented was that a lot of kukris don't have an especially sharp edge, and the edge profile isn't great. Beyond that he commented that the bevels are frequently quite steep. After he sent the email he looked around on eBay and found some kukris of WWI vintage and noticed that they tend to have shallower bevels and appear to have a thinner spine. So he and I were wondering if kukris during WWI were made of thinner stock with flatter bevels because they were being used more as weapons, or if it was a matter of economics. Anyone know? I'm also curious how the trend towards thicker kukris got its start. I suspect it's got a lot to do with the shift towards truck leaf springs, and because most knives these days seem to have relatively thin blades, and the thick blade of the kukri sets it apart. I also suspect that for tool use as opposed to weapon use the thicker blade probably works better.

 

[Karda]

Historically, you can look back to the Victorian era and before for larger khukuri. Back when flint and percussion firearms the khukuri tended to be larger and thicker. Mainly because at that time they were a major part of a gurkha kit, used for everything from preparing meals to dispatching an enemy. This basically holds true until the World Wars which prompted a change toward thinner lighter khukuri mostly dedicated to combat. As firearm technology progressed the khukuri became less of a major part of the kit because most fighting was done with bullets and bombs. As infantry became more mobile and accustomed to technology the khukuri became more obsolete and became almost as specialized as the units that carried them.

With Himalayan Imports, the trend towards thicker khukuri got it's start because many customers wanted khukuri that would hold up to dedicated woods work such as camping, trekking and survival. When used properly, the thicker spine can aid in chopping wood with less effort than the forced high velocity swings of a lighter khukuri. Think of this as you would the difference between a axe and a maul. Sure, you can split wood with an axe, but a maul, while heavier, will split a round with far less velocity and effort.

 

[Jobesmirage]

maybe go in the direction of sirapati types which are thinner and lighter

 

[Scara]

maybe go in the direction of sirapati types which are thinner and lighter

You would think so, but my Sirupati is just as thick as my WWII.

 

[Karda]

That's why it is suggested that attention be paid to lengths and weights when purchasing. Different members will have differing ideas on what size and weight they prefer for usage. Some members will like heavier khukuri and some will like lighter khukuri. Some will like both and have differing roles for each.

The nice thing about HI is that you can find both.

 

[Scara]

That's why it is suggested that attention be paid to lengths and weights when purchasing. Different members will have differing ideas on what size and weight they prefer for usage. Some members will like heavier khukuri and some will like lighter khukuri. Some will like both and have differing roles for each.

The nice thing about HI is that you can find both.

And good advice it is. I haven't paid a ton of attention to the weight, but it does seem like lighter kukris are harder to find, but there's more demand for heavyweights so I won't complain.

 

[Karda]

Truth be told, most of HI's stock and trade are khukuri specifically made for chopping wood. That is what you will find most of.
Lighter khukuri are used for things other than chopping wood and have their place too, but by demand you'll find less of them here.

People that talk of lighter "more historically correct" khukuri being better users don't really have a proper grasp of the functionality of khukuri as it pertains to wood lore and are actually historically incorrect. Most of these people have a fetish for lighter combat dedicated khukuri of a small window in history....when khukuri were mainly a sidearm and not used as one would use them in everyday life or combat before the 2 world wars. In actuality, pre-Victorian and turn of the century khukuri were around 19" and the thickness and weight varied as much or possibly even more than what we see offered today by any company.

 

[Shavru]

Karda strikes it right on the head. Khukuris have so much history that looking at the thickness of the spine during any small window of their useage leads one to misunderstanding of the entire history. After all, the roots of this blade might be reliably traced back to the 17th century, when Gurkhas used it for digging holes, cutting vegetables and meat and for other odd jobs. there is some belief that the basic design and shape dates back potentially over one thousand years ago.

Blades made for Prithvi Narayan Shah as weapons (there is a pair at the national museum of his khuks) were slightly thinner, This honestly has probably more to do with the steel available during this time than anything else. And the fact that they were made specificly as weapons probably emphasized that as well. As Karda points out, the majority of HI made blades are meant as tools, not primarily weapons. So the thicker spines are a benefit in that case. Khuks, come in so many various styles and each style comes in many thicknesses/weights, though you are very correct that they do seem to have gotten bulkier over time, I am believing that was in response to us Westerners seeming to prefer the thicker blades, so the Kamis just keep making them bigger and heavier until we now have the average 1/2" thick spines we see so frequently now. I have heard that folks who order special orders can get the thinner lighter blades of prior years by specifically requesting them. It can be done LOL. And I for one would love to see some of the blades with some lighter thinner spines a bit more often, but then I would be even more broke than I am now

One thing I would question is what sort of KLO's your friend is using to have not sharp edges and steep bevels? All my HI khuks are Convex edged, and I know they show up plenty sharp, and can be brought to razor sharp without adding a secondary bevel.

 

[Scara]

Karda strikes it right on the head. Khukuris have so much history that looking at the thickness of the spine during any small window of their useage leads one to misunderstanding of the entire history. After all, the roots of this blade might be reliably traced back to the 17th century, when Gurkhas used it for digging holes, cutting vegetables and meat and for other odd jobs. there is some belief that the basic design and shape dates back potentially over one thousand years ago.

Blades made for Prithvi Narayan Shah as weapons (there is a pair at the national museum of his khuks) were slightly thinner, This honestly has probably more to do with the steel available during this time than anything else. And the fact that they were made specificly as weapons probably emphasized that as well. As Karda points out, the majority of HI made blades are meant as tools, not primarily weapons. So the thicker spines are a benefit in that case. Khuks, come in so many various styles and each style comes in many thicknesses/weights, though you are very correct that they do seem to have gotten bulkier over time, I am believing that was in response to us Westerners seeming to prefer the thicker blades, so the Kamis just keep making them bigger and heavier until we now have the average 1/2" thick spines we see so frequently now. I have heard that folks who order special orders can get the thinner lighter blades of prior years by specifically requesting them. It can be done LOL. And I for one would love to see some of the blades with some lighter thinner spines a bit more often, but then I would be even more broke than I am now

One thing I would question is what sort of KLO's your friend is using to have not sharp edges and steep bevels? All my HI khuks are Convex edged, and I know they show up plenty sharp, and can be brought to razor sharp without adding a secondary bevel.

I won't name where he's gotten his kukris from, but none of them are HI kuks. As best as I can tell, his traditional kuks are from one competitor who isn't known for highest quality, and he has one or two kuks with more contemporary technology that seem more built as weapons. I told him that HIs tend to be better in every way, but I admitted at the same time that they tend to be built as tools and not weapons. He and I both have a stronger interest in kukris and knives in general as weapons as opposed to tools, so it's been the main point in our discussion.

All in all, thanks for the info. I hadn't realized that the historical norm was thick with a period of thinner during the wars. I suspected that the thicker ones were more of a modern thing. So now I have a new quest, shark up a 1 oz per inch kuk.

 

[cul4u01]

There has recently been some Reti blades that were less than an ounce an inch

 

[gurkha berserka]

I think I know who you are talking about Scara... I use to "drink his punch" before I did my own research. I have a 1770's style partial tang, hollow forged blade by that company. It has a 18in blade and weighs 13.5oz. It is very light and very fast but on further examination I found a rather "wavy" edge due to the heat treating process warping the blade due to its very thin spine.

IMHO That guy and the people that work for him (I think I know who you are talking to, and yes he does work for them) tend to put the cart before the horse. I use common sense when I think of these things... The gurkha were small statured people that probably couldn't and or wouldn't want to handle a +30oz kukri. A 5'2 115lbs person probably finds a lighter 15oz kukri more comfortable to wield, where as a 6'5 300lbs person like myself have no issue swinging my 33oz WWII all day long. The tool was designed for the user and end users of the kukri were very small in stature historically.

I would bet a pretty penny that traditional gurkha kukris would of been a little heavier if the gurkha themselves where are larger stature. That's just my opinion... Please watch out if you decide to buy on of those "other" kukris. Some have called them KLO's, but they aren't. He really does make historically accurate kukris. I don't consider them KLO's, I consider them kukris BUT...and here is the big BUT... Be careful and inspect the competitors kukri in person before you buy it. Mine came less than perfect and I have heard ALOT off horror stories about their kukris.

I can only comment on the one I bought so here is what was wrong or defective about it. Lets start with the sheath...

1st My frog was a spotted color when I got it, I though it was mold but it was a bad dye job. Some one wiped the leather dye off way to fast and left a spotted, molted appearance on the frog, oh it was also dried out and cracking in the belt loop area. I soaked it in mineral oil to replenish the moisture.

2nd the sheath was filled with card board and newspaper to keep the kukri tight and to stop it from moving. It was a very sloppy, almost 1st grade attempt at a repair. I have since removed the material and the kukri fits loose but its better than wet newspaper staining your blade. I cant understand why they stuffed it with shims, the blade was only moderately loose. The shim job just made them look ghetto.

3rd My edge has a "twist" to it due to the improper heat treatment. The spine is straight but he edge has a "waviness" to it. I know that JW has had luck straightening one of his by that maker. He made his own heatsink out of a vice, straightened, then re hardened his kukri but that's beyond my skill and tool level.

I paid well over $200 bucks for it and it shouldnt be this way. I consider myself lucky after seeing and hearing other horror stories about that company. At least my kukri is functional, even with the wavy edge. Please personally inspect anything you buy from them before sending your hard earned dollars. I am not usually a brand loyal guy and have scoffed at others who are "brand loyal". Kukri's are the one item that I am brand loyal to after a couple bad experiences with other makers. HI is the only one getting my kukri money.

 

[Scara]

I haven't been talking to that guy. The guy I'm talking to teaches knife fighting, but he isn't a kukri guy. He's actually been coming to me at this point for information on the kukri. He has bought kukris from a competitor, and he likes the kukri but he's noticed issues with the competitor that has about five different names for no apparent reason, and poor quality control. And since his interests lie more in knife fighting, he's more interested in thinner kukris.

 

[gurkha berserka]

Oh ok... Thanks for the update. I have a couple "fighting" kukris from HI with thinner spines. I have a Bashpati that has a spine thats less than 1/4 inch. It's very light as is their Hanshee model. I've seen Hanshee with partial and stick tangs from HI. They are hollow forged and true fighters. They list a partial tang model in their catalog. You might want to try a kobra as well.

 

[Scara]

Oh ok... Thanks for the update. I have a couple "fighting" kukris from HI with thinner spines. I have a Bashpati that has a spine thats less than 1/4 inch. It's very light as is their Hanshee model. I've seen Hanshee with partial and stick tangs from HI. They are hollow forged and true fighters. They list a partial tang model in their catalog. You might want to try a kobra as well.

I think I'd prefer the Hanshee to the Kobra. Nothing against the Kobra, but I like the heavy curve of the Hanshee. I hadn't realized the Bashpati had a thin spine. I'd always looked at it and suspected it was closer to an Ang Khola based on the shape. I will however be mentioning the Kobra to him. It'll be a lot easier for him to buy a Kobra instead of trying to shark a DOTD. I think I'll also see about getting him to try out an HI, just to see how much better they are.

 

[gurkha berserka]

I think I'd prefer the Hanshee to the Kobra. Nothing against the Kobra, but I like the heavy curve of the Hanshee. I hadn't realized the Bashpati had a thin spine. I'd always looked at it and suspected it was closer to an Ang Khola based on the shape. I will however be mentioning the Kobra to him. It'll be a lot easier for him to buy a Kobra instead of trying to shark a DOTD. I think I'll also see about getting him to try out an HI, just to see how much better they are.

Yup.. my Bashpati is pretty light @ 21in and 23oz. The Hanshee is definitely the "sexiest" blade HI makes in my opinion. I love the way the blade angle and its just screams "fighter". I know Karda has a pretty nice one, I had asked Auntie about having one made but it was during the festivals over there. She said to get back to her around Nov. to see if what she can do. I have a HI wakizashi in transit right now so I am going to hold off on the Hanshee for a little while.

One bit of advice...If he wants a truly light weight fighter then I would order the partial tang Hanshee over the stick tang version. They one shown in HI's catalog is the partial tang version which will have a more blade heavy feel over the stick tang version. The partial tang also has a curved grip with works better with the Hanshee's shape, that and its more historically correct. They are modeled after Chhetri kukris made in the late 1700's for Royalty. The upper castes didn't need "do all" kukris because they had people to do the work for them. They needed pure weapons hence the Chhetri style kukris

Here is a link to my Chhetri I posted in the Cantina... Its pretty damn cool except for the warped edge. I can live with the warped edge because the spine is straight. It takes a good eye to see the twist but once its seen it becomes very noticeable.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1219567-Chhetri-Goorkhali-Kukri?highlight=chhetri

 

[Scara]

Yup.. my Bashpati is pretty light @ 21in and 23oz. The Hanshee is definitely the "sexiest" blade HI makes in my opinion. I love the way the blade angle and its just screams "fighter". I know Karda has a pretty nice one, I had asked Auntie about having one made but it was during the festivals over there. She said to get back to her around Nov. to see if what she can do. I have a HI wakizashi in transit right now so I am going to hold off on the Hanshee for a little while.

One bit of advice...If he wants a truly light weight fighter then I would order the partial tang Hanshee over the stick tang version. They one shown in HI's catalog is the partial tang version which will have a more blade heavy feel over the stick tang version. The partial tang also has a curved grip with works better with the Hanshee's shape, that and its more historically correct. They are modeled after Chhetri kukris made in the late 1700's for Royalty. The upper castes didn't need "do all" kukris because they had people to do the work for them. They needed pure weapons hence the Chhetri style kukris

So when you say partial tang, do you mean the normal rat-tail tang as opposed to the Chitlangi tang, or is the partial tang actually a shorter tang that doesn't go all the way to the pommel?

Yeah, I sent her the blueprints to the Scara Suga around the time of the festivals, so I know what that's like.

And I've heard about an HI catalog, but never seen it. Where could I find it?

 

[gurkha berserka]

There is a link to the catalog somewhere on this forum. I have it saved to my desktop lol. The partial tang doesn't come all the way through the grip like the "rat tail" tang. It goes in about 3/4 of the way and the bottom of the grip is just wood without a brass or metal plate. The partial tangs have better balance with the lighter hollow forged blades but I wouldn't do any chopping with them. They are pure fighters through and through, designed for cutting through flesh, muscle, and a bone or two. Im sure they can do some chopping but I wouldn't want to risk damaging the blade.

 

[ndoghouse]

There has recently been some Reti blades that were less than an ounce an inch

I agree on the Retis. They are all fighter! They are somewhat rare because they are made from files after the Kamis have worn them out. Being such an important tool I doubt they come along very often but then again last time i said that some were posted the next day They are way below the oz/inch ratio.

gb: I believe the Hanuman AK, and Gurkha Hat knives for example are partial tang. Maybe some more. They are strong enough for AK's and strong enough for the Gurkha Army Khuks so I wouldnt worry too much about their strength.

 

[Shavru]

All in all, thanks for the info. I hadn't realized that the historical norm was thick with a period of thinner during the wars. I suspected that the thicker ones were more of a modern thing. So now I have a new quest, shark up a 1 oz per inch kuk.

I do agree that the extreme thickness we see now is a more modern thing. I think prior to us Westerners getting HIKV the blades (even the ones I think of as thicker) from history were not quite so in your face thick as they are now. Prior to the 1800s they were slightly thicker than Victorian age ones but then they started really getting the monster thickness we see today only a few years ago relatively. That is why I say that a special order can still get these "lighter" beasts because some of the kamis have made the less brutish ones occasionally. Though lately the thicker the better does seem to be the standard viewpoint in customer base and so therefore kami views.

 

[Bawanna]

So when you say partial tang, do you mean the normal rat-tail tang as opposed to the Chitlangi tang, or is the partial tang actually a shorter tang that doesn't go all the way to the pommel?

Yeah, I sent her the blueprints to the Scara Suga around the time of the festivals, so I know what that's like.

And I've heard about an HI catalog, but never seen it. Where could I find it?

I believe you mean Chiruwa rather than Chitlangi. Chitlangi is a model, Chiruwa is a full metal handle with slab grips on each side.