BG-42 vs VG-10 -- opinions?

S

storyville

Joined
Aug 11, 1999
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These two steels appear well-suited for similar blade designs and uses. Assuming good heat treat for both, is one "better" than the other in some/most/all respects? Why?

Thanks,
Glen
 
Given good heat treating I don't think you could tell them apart is you didn't know ahead of time. Of course the same might be said if you included ATS-34 and 440c in the mix. I suspect, the differences between any of these steels is much less than we would like to believe.

The same might be said regarding the carbon steels. A2, 1095, O1, 5160, 52100. etc.. Given good contruction and heat treating, a knife made out of any of these will do great service.
 
BG42 is higher in carbon, molybdenum, and vanadium. It is processed for high purity (via vacuum remelt, I think). It works well when hardened up at 60-61 RC. VG-10 takes a great edge and is tough but works better if about 1 RC lower than BG42. I like them both, but prefer BG42.
 
Jeff; full marks. I believe Timken Latrobe to be the sole manufacturer of BG42, technically 'Lescalloy (r) BG42 (r) VIM-VAR High Performance Bearing Steel.' BG stands for Bearing Grade.

As the name denotes, the steel is purified by Vacuum Induction Melting - Vacuum Arc Remelting. This yields a very pure steel which can yield a very fine grain structure. For full details on this steel, go to the TL website:http://www.timken.com/latrobe/technical_info/bearingfax.asp

Neither ATS-34 or 154CM are purified by VIM-VAR, although the resurgant popularity of 154CM is due to its' improved purity, obtained through a different process. Here is a Crucible Particle Metallurgy metallurgists' comments about this, courtesy of Joe Talmadge on KFC:

One myth from that time that continues to plague the grade is that
154CM was vacuum re-melted. This grade was never produced with vacuum
re-melt technology. At the time it was air melt material. Today it
is melted differently...

Like I said earlier,
many years ago, this material was produced by air melt technology.
Today it is produced by the Argon/Oxygen/Decarburization process
(AOD). This is the primary way to produce quality stainless steels.
It is not as clean as re-melted steels but is about as close as you
can get and is much cleaner than 15 years ago. 3 years ago when we
entered back into the 154CM market we were concerned that the ATS-34
was cleaner than ours. We found just the opposite. They do not
re-melt their material either and in numerous tests with knife makers
and polishers our material was much cleaner. Based on our sales and
responses from our customers, the myth of the dirty 154CM is behind us
for good.
Click to expand...

I mention the AOD process as it is possible that it is utilized in the production of VG-10; I was unable to find out the details of this steel, other than its' elemental composition. Does anyone know who produces it?

I mention ATS-34, as it is basically VG-10 with minor changes. VG-10 has slightly more Cr, a dab of Co (1.4%), a little more Mn, and 0.2% V, but only 1/4 the Mo. One would expect these two steels to perform in a similar manner.

BG42, on the other hand, is not only cleaner, it has an elemental alloy advantage, with the 4% Mo of ATS-34 and 1.2%V yielding lots of hard V carbides. One could reasonably expect this steel to outperform ATS-34 or VG-10. Certainly Chris Reeve switched from ATS-34 to B42 for a good reason.

Hope this helps,

Walt, Certified Spec Sheet Guru
smile.gif


 
BG-42 is better because it is available from craft knife makers, who make the best knives. As far as I know the only knives available in VG-10 are the Falknivens, a couple of Spydercos, and one or two other production knives here and there.

Anybody know of a handmade knife in VG-10?

As far as actual performance, probably not significantly different, depending on blade shape and heat treat, though BG-42 certainly has slightly better potential for edge holding.
 
Thanks for the replies. I’m curious about the two partly because they have both emerged as "successor" steels to ATS-34. Chris Reeve Knives switched the Sebenza from ATS-34 to BG-42 after extensive in-house testing, apparently. CRK claims that BG-42 performs better in every significant way: better edge-holding and toughness at higher RC, and even slightly improved corrosion resistance. I believe that the downsides are that it costs more than ATS-34 and is harder to work in production.

RE Walt’s comments/Q’s:
I believe VG-10 is a Japanese-made steel which was introduced to Spyderco by its manufacturer in Seki, Japan. Its superior performance vis-à-vis ATS-34 sounds similar to CRK’s account of BG-42 (although I can’t point to any sources offhand). After testing Spyderco’s Moran in VG-10, Fällkniven too was impressed enough to make the switch.

Steve:
Hmm … I’m curious why Spyderco hasn’t used BG-42 (no doubt they’ve tested it) and why others (mfg co’s and indiv makers) haven’t tried VG-10.

In any case, while the CPM’s have been touted for superior edge-holding and wear resistance (although not universally), they have also been noted for their relative brittleness. I don’t recall hearing any "complaints"/criticisms as yet of either BG-42 or VG-10.

Loki:
I agree that differences in daily use between two quality steels may be hard to notice … which is why I’m curious to hear "user" feedback from folks who have both VG-10 and BG-42, i.e., if they "notice" a difference. But for the price hike for better steels, the differences should be fairly apparent. The Sebenza was the first "real expensive" knife I ever bought, and it was very noticeably better than any stainless I’d used before. In daily use and in camping/hiking, I preferred its cut and edge-holding to my 1095 steel Ontario Parachutist.

.02

Glen
 
Isn't VG-10 supposed to be more corrosion resistant than Bg-42?

Think about what really matters to knife USERS, (in no particular order).

What kind of edge will it obtain?
Edge retention?
Corrosion resistance?
Resistance to chipping.
Flex strength, (2 axis plus torsional).

The last is probably not as critical in a folder as in a tough use intended fixed blade.
 
A fair number of people on or near at least three continents heat-treat ATS34, making it practical for makers and manufacturers all over the place to use it.

I think one major practical difference, for the time being, is that the folks who heat-treat BG42 are all or mostly in the USA, and the folks who heat-treat VG10 are all in Japan. That could presumably change at any time, but I haven't heard of a VG10 knife being made outside Japan. If you're having a run of high-quality production knives made, and you hire an American company to do the work, BG42 is an option you can ask for. If you hire Moki to do the work, VG10 is an optionj you can ask for.

A couple of years ago, Fällkniven switched contractors from Germany (probably Linder) to Japan (probably Moki), and improved their quality. And that's where you find the VG10 heat-treat professionals, who may or may not want to discuss their recipe with other people.



------------------
- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
 
James:
Are you saying that other than nationality they are about six and one-half dozen to us end users?

Jeff:
Is this a difference that blade forumites will ever notice or is it more of a 20,000 rpm turbine ball bearing thing?

[This message has been edited by Nimrod (edited 07-15-2000).]
 
The steels are different enough that it would be interesting to see how well they perform when ground and cooked and finished by the same talent. But so far that hasn't happened yet.

------------------
- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
 
Actually, BG-42 is slightly more stain resistant than VG-10, BG=42 is also easier to sharpen and much tougher with better edge retention so over all I would say that it is for most uses the better steel.
smile.gif

check out page 58 of the new Blade magazine(September). This article compares 10 of the most commonly used blade steels and is quite informative.
 
James,
Thanks for the heat treat comment – makes sense. It would be interesting to see a comparison of the two in the same blade design.


Neither steel appears to have any detractors or significant criticisms. I really love the BG-42 in the Sebenza; VG-10 has won a lot of praise especially in the Calypso among the Spydie folders, and the Fallkniven fixeds. BG-42 has gained a good deal of praise in custom work, too.

Any comments on BG-42 in Buck knives?

Thanks all for the additional comments –

Glen
 
Nimrod … RE flex strength and toughness: Another interesting feature of these two alloys is that they appear to excel among the stainless steels in both respects – I have not (yet) heard any qualifying comments about relative "brittleness" for either, as we have heard RE 440Vand 420V. Certainly, Fällkniven’s VG-10 appears to resist pretty high levels of punishment, at least in the 5mm and 6mm thick models, both of which also have durable tips/points.

Glen
 
Glen: Really haven't abused my Fallkniven, but I agree with you that their bladeshape (A-1) really lends itself to a pointed yet sufficiently reinforced tip. I like the knife.

Has nothing to do with blade steel but I wonder how prone to jamming debris between the pummel area of the handle and the steel their design is. Haven't used it to beat anything with, but would like to hear from those who have.
 
Originally posted by storyville:
James

Any comments on BG-42 in Buck knives?


I can compare Buck's BG-42 to Benchmade's ATS-34 - it is significantly better at edgeholding, and easier to sharpen (at least for me).

John
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by lambertiana:
I can compare Buck's BG-42 to Benchmade's ATS-34 - it is significantly better at edgeholding, and easier to sharpen (at least for me).
Click to expand...

At the risk of bringing down the wrath of the moderator gods, I must say, "Me TOO!" The BG-42 in my Buck-Lock held its edge very well through my cardboard-recycling test. As good as CPM-440V, and pretty much as good as M2. And took on a wicked sharp edge when I resharpened it, fairly easily.

I HIGHLY recommend Buck's BG-42 blades.

------------------
iktomi
 
Originally posted by Ron@SOG:
SOG is introducing several production knives soon in BG-42 (the X-42 AutoClips folding knives and the Recondo fixed blade). We are sold on it being a near perfect steel for knives. Ron@SOG
Click to expand...

Ron, please get some data from the personnel at SOG who test blade steels. I'm sure this group would be very interested to know what they tested vs. BG-42 and how they came to the conclusion referenced above.

Examples:
* hardnesses tested and cutting performance vs. toughness/brittleness.

* cryogenic treatment results

* suitability for large chopping knives (e.g. SOG Tech I and Tech II sized knives)

Many thanks.


------------------
rdangerer@home.com
 
I have no brittleness problems with ATS-34. Properly heat treated, it is very tough for a high-alloy steel. Chris Reeve says BG-42 is better, so does RJ Martin. I believe them, but I think the difference is incremental. VG-10 may be a special order by a particular large Japanese knife making firm, and you probably can't get any unless you order thousands of knives from that firm, though I don't know that for a fact. I do know that none of my favorite knife makers offer it.

CPM420V is not brittle if heat treated properly, but then neither is CPM440V or ATS-34. But it is still comparing apples and oranges because VG-10 is only available on certain production knives (with very thick edges in the case of the Falknivens, I might add, which may have something to do with VG-10's reputation for toughness).

The best stain resistant steels are CPM420V and good ol' D-2 and A-2 in my opinion. CPM420V performs as well as the best heat treated high-carbon, low-alloy blades in my opinion. If you want high stain resistance, go with good ol' 440C or Talonite.

Personally, I think a good ergonomic knife design, and good cutting edge geometry, is a lot more important than the difference between ATS-34 and differentially heat treated 52100, or particularly, between VG-10 and BG-42. A great design in good steel, heat treated appropriately, is going to be a great cutting tool.
 
A little bit off topic here, but i have some question on CPM440v. If more carbon content increase the hardness, then why is CPM440 w/ 2.15 of Cr content scores a Rockwell test softer than the less Cr content steels, ie ATS 34. Also does Molybdenum play a big role in blade hardness? What about AUS8 vs ATS34? Does AUS8 outperform ATS34? At least that's what Cold Steel advertise.
Thanks
 
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