Big Knife or Hatchet?

Magnaminous_G said:
A 4" fixed blade and a Bahco or Silky folding saw. That will let you process anything up to 5" thick with ease. Why would you need to process anything bigger than that, either for fire or shelter? But if you're splitting a lot of logs (say for a camp with a lot of people for several weeks), an axe is best: safer and much more efficient, if you use the right technique.

[youtube]X5W6r5U7yBE[/youtube]

The Swedish companies like Wetterlings make great axes that are fairly short and portable. I've discovered that the "camp knife" phenomenon seems to only exist on BF. Not many of the bushcraft forum folks seem partial to large knives. I know that big knives are very popular here, and I would never knock them since people seem to be using them successfully in the field with their own techniques. But you will note that none of the well-known bushcraft experts you may have heard of (Ray Mears, Dave Canterbury, Cody Lundin, heck even Bear Grylls) carry a knife longer than 4" into the field ever. But as always, YMMV and you should do what feels best for you.
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I agree with much of what you said bud. But lets be honest. True wilderness settings, and I've been in a few, are getting to be as rare as hens teeth in our modern world. With GPS devices, cell phones etc. our lives are only in danger if we chose to go with the extreme basics and or have an accident. Myself, I do not have the skills of the above mentioned individuals. Nor do I have the interest, time or desire to go that hard core. We often lead busy multifaceted lives and consciously choose to go to place X and bring cutting tool X simply out of choice for its utility value and fun factor. I can create a natural shelter, make a fire and generally have a ball with a machete. If this means that I'm not some hip ''bushcraft'' dude, so be it. I have my four inch knives and fiddle around with them also, but I could care less about gaining points by carving a log house with a razer blade. I agree, do what feels best for you, and that is what I did last week with my small forest axe. I have definately learned from the above bushcraft experts, but there is no way that I will ever adopt their lifestyle. Even when I lived in a very far, isolated (fly in), northern location, I still lived in a building with electricity, hot and cold running water, and even satellite TV. Such is the nature of the far north today. I feel that equipment is as much choice as it is necessity in 2012.
 
I agree 100% that it should be about utility value and fun. :) I don't possess hard-core bushcraft skills like Ray Mears, and I would never try to live off the land with no modern conveniences. :D I only mentioned those guys because I think the reason why they carry the gear they have is because they find that a smaller knife is just more practical for the task. I don't think it's about being hip with the bushcraft crowd or challenging oneself; to the contrary, I think they choose small knives because they find them easier to use. I think they probably just find a large knife cumbersome. I do, in any case, and I am certainly not a highly-skilled bushman! I know that camp knives and other large knives are very popular here and, in the right hands, can handle just about anything.

You mentioned that you were talking about a machete, and I apologize... I didn't realize that's the knife you were referring to. In my opinion, a machete is in a whole 'nother category. Machetes are good and are even preferable in some situations (jungle setting, for example)! I was talking about the large, "camp" or "bowie" style knives that are popular here on BF. I just don't see the use of those, but again, different strokes for different folks, and some people love them. I was just answering the original question of the thread: Big Knife or Hatchet? I would vote for hatchet, but again, it depends on the individual's choice.
 
Magnaminous_G said:
I've discovered that the "camp knife" phenomenon seems to only exist on BF.
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Nah, I know people who don't even go near a computer that like a big knife for out in the woods.:)
It's all about preference, and finding out what works for the individual...which is good, or there'd only be one type of knife, one type of axe, one type of saw, and I'd be really, really bored.
 
My thoughts are:
1) great video about axes and using them... Having spent more than half my life heating with firewood and cutting and splititng much of that by hand he hits all the high points succinctly and accurately.

2)I'm still exploring hatchet vs axe vs tomahawk vs big knife vs saw for back country firewood supply. My view is a folding portable saw is the easiest lowest energy way to cut a largish logs into reasonable lengths (whether the length is 1' or 6' is up to you). Its also the lightest tool of the above listed so carrying it is nice. That leaves the splitting, and if weight is no option an axe is again lowest energy input. So if wieght is an option a hatchet/small axe, or tomahawlk may be the best choice depending on skills and wood types.

3)A machete is for cutting green wood and building shelters, its thin so it slices deep and cuts clean.

4)A large heavy duty knife with a thick spine may do some or all of the above but it will do them with more energy expenditure than the other tools. The tradeoff is whether this energy increase is less than the energy spent carrying the additional tools and weight. Just as a thick grind knife doesn't slice as well as a thinner one. Also the bigger the knife is the better it will chop and split but the less useful it is for fine work and food prep.

I haven't fully settled on what works best for me, but I'm basically lazy :) I like to relax and enjoy my bush time, not work hard every second to have the amenities. I also like to carry the least weight possible and still not make living a hardship. So I'm toying with the various combinations of tools. :)
 
Rapt_up said:
My view is a folding portable saw is the easiest lowest energy way to cut a largish logs into reasonable lengths
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Depends on the saw as well.
The last outing, someone brought one of those folding saws...I forget which brand.
It truly sucked. I mean really, REALLY sucked.
So, I went back to using a big knife to notch, then break it at the notch between a few trees.:)
Used less energy, and had lots of knifey fun.:D

On the other hand, one time someone brough a collapsable bow-saw type of thing, and it worked great, so I'm not averse to the idea of a good saw.
 
stabman said:
Depends on the saw as well.
The last outing, someone brought one of those folding saws...I forget which brand.
It truly sucked. I mean really, REALLY sucked.
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That's true, there is a lot of crap out there. Anything by Silky or Bahco will never fail you, though. Here's a vid of a guy using a Bahco Laplander. Watch how fast he gets through a 6" thick log.

[video=youtube;o1HT7Iwp9Iw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1HT7Iwp9Iw[/video]

Here's a video of Ray Mears using a very cool technique to split a log (maybe 4" thick). The thing of real interest is the part at 00:42 into the video, when he cuts through the log. Notice how fast and effortless the cut happens.

[video=youtube;lSOXU0rrqOM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSOXU0rrqOM[/video]
 
stabman said:
Depends on the saw as well.
So, I went back to using a big knife to notch, then break it at the notch between a few trees.:)
Used less energy, and had lots of knifey fun.:D

On the other hand, one time someone brough a collapsable bow-saw type of thing, and it worked great, so I'm not averse to the idea of a good saw.
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I was talking about the bow saw style. The ones I have are as good as the standard bow saw, only packs down much smaller when not in use. And I'm talking larger logs 5" plus diameter, breaking those would require either serious notches or a lot of force. :)
 
Someone said that for splitting wood an axe required the least energy. I'm not sure about that- I'd say it depends on the situation. If you've got a nice chopping block and the ends of the piece to be split are flat and square then a heavy axe probably is the most efficient way. But usually the situation I'm in is that there's soft ground, there's no handy stump around to use as a chopping block. It becomes a bit annoying and dangerous to use the axe now, because the piece is not that stable. The wood is not very straight and doesn't want to stand upright.

That's where the advantage of a knife is. You don't need any of that, just a decently sized baton. It doesn't care if the ground is soft and steep, if the ends are not cut square, if the piece is crooked. It's inherently safer because theres not a heavy bit flying around. That's good if you need to split some wood when you're not 100% physically or mentally. And it really doesn't take much energy to baton. You can also split off accurately sized pieces which isn't a big deal for fire wood, but for other tasks it can be useful.

There's also a "survival" aspect. If you were injured, would it be easier to swing an axe or baton a knife? If you needed someone else in your group to split wood, say a woman or a child, would you feel safer if they used an axe or batonned a knife?
 
personally i am partial to a large chopper as my primary woods tool. I think there's a lot more utility there, and i haven't seen many things that a small axe or hawk does better than a good chopper.

it's difficult (not even close to impossible) to use an axe for game processing, brush clearing and food prep, and all the things that an axe excels at, wood processing, tree cutting, shelter building, a good knife is at least competent at

my personal favorites in this category the Busse Battle Mistress and the Condor Boomslang.

The battle mistress is indestructible, and the boomslang is an affordable tool with awesome performance
 
dogstar said:
You don't need nice square ends or a chopping block to split wood with an axe. There are techniques that are not commonly portrayed in axe use. I put together a thread for reference on axe techniques:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...to-use-an-Axe-(video-laden)?highlight=use+axe
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I'm aware of the method where you chop into the side of the log and pry. In my experience it works well on smaller wood, provided its straight grained. It's no easier than batoning a knife and less controllable. You need something like a log or fallen tree to set the piece on as well, but normally that's not hard to find.

Also the method where you spread your legs and chop down between your feet, well that's neat, but at that point you are just using an axe because you like using an axe. I think axes are fun, too, but in this case I don't see any way you can make a practical argument that an axe is safer, or more energy efficient.


RiderOntheStorm said:
I've always been taught use the right tool for the job. So unless you are a survivalist, a good ax works wonders.
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What job are you talking about exactly? And who is the arbiter on what is and is not the right tool? How many tools do you carry with you in the woods, if you insist on using exactly the right tool for every job?

To counter your generic statement with another: "There's more than one way to skin a cat".


More broadly, I think we should define exactly what kinds of work we are talking about. The better big knives can hang with hatchets probably up to the size of the Gransfors SFA, in terms of chopping ability. The ability to use a two handed grip on the SFA means you can use a bigger muscle group and so there is less fatigue to use it on large wood (6" and over). I normally don't mess with wood that large, and most people that do would be better served with a bow saw than either an axe or knife (because they lack skill with chopping). On smaller woods (say 2" and less) the knife may outperform the hatchet straight up in terms of effort. They have less mass but thinner grinds, strike with greater velocity, and require less skill to place your blows accurately. Now, if the axe you have in mind is a 36" felling axe, then no knife I know of is going to keep up with it in chopping power. But you have a significant size and weight penalty to pay for carrying that, and it's cumbersome to use for lighter tasks like limbing small branches. And I still think a big knife has inherent advantages in splitting in a real backcountry environment, even versus a very large axe.
 
Robs92XJ said:
I'm aware of the method where you chop into the side of the log and pry. In my experience it works well on smaller wood, provided its straight grained. It's no easier than batoning a knife and less controllable. You need something like a log or fallen tree to set the piece on as well, but normally that's not hard to find.

Also the method where you spread your legs and chop down between your feet, well that's neat,
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Robs, I was thinking of neither of those ways. You can lay a log on top another and hit it along the side. If you miss, you hit the ground. With this method, you can split wood as large as is practical with an axe of a given size. Also, I have already mentioned you can baton an axe just as you would a knife.

It's obvious you're a big knife advocate, which is fine. Maybe some day you will be interested in axes and get to like them.
 
The CS tomahawks are very good tools for the money. Because of how thin the bit is you could find your self outchopping much more expensive axes.
 
Its great to see the variety and different experiences. :)

I'm currently always carrying a couple knives when I camp anyways so the larger heavier tool would be simply for larger heavier tasks like wood. I have smaller knives for fine things, precision cutting, and game prep. I often have both a machete and a collapsible bow saw, and sometimes a small axe too... :D depends on if I have people to help or if I'm on my own. Also as a long time solo camper safety is another major factor.

Finally I'm also toying with making an axe to my own specs that is suitable for skinning and game prep as well as wood prep. I admittedly haven't done a lot of work with uberlarge knives (other than in the kitchen where I have a 12" blade sashimi knife and a 10" blade chef's knife. Neither of which has convinced me that a large knife is easy to use for small detailed tasks. Certainly I'd not choose anything that large for skinning most game if I had a choice.

My feeling is to find a large chopper type as a imroved performance machete more than an axe or cook knife substitute, also I guess I could try some batoning at that point. My problem is most weigh far more than my machete. Although they probably weight less than my machete and axe together.
 
After trying lots and lots and lots of big knives I found that a small folding saw and a small knife is all I "need" I also found that I much prefer my Wetterlings hunters hatchet to any large knife. If I want a big knife I actually reach for a 12" machete instead.
 
Raymond1000 said:
I was taught to never use an axe as a wedge. That’s an easy way to deform the eye. Deforming the eye is an easy way to send you shopping for a new axe.
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Point taken. If you have a fine eye, treat it carefully. I've batoned with a cheap Collins hatchet and my own Fiskars hatchet (which is eyeless). Granted, I did this when I was new to axes. I'm not sure if I will baton an axe again, knowing more ways to employ the axe. I will always do what I feel is safe.

There is a technique, in which you swing the axe, bury the bit, then turn the log upside down and smash down on the axe head. Momentum drives the log through the bit and splits the wood. I think this puts a lot of stress on the head as well.
 
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