Biological/Chemical Survival Tips?

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It seems to me the urban warrior and wilderness survival man might not be prepared to defend and survive against a biological or chemical terrorist attack. Some reasons for this could be a lack of experience, training, knowledge, and tools for survival such as antibiotics, immunizations and other medications.

The popular professional opinion is that a gas mask is of little or no use and unless you receive medical attention, no amount of self effort to survive will work. We cannot employ the martial arts as
a self defense and there are no wilderness materials known to me that would ensure survival against smallpox, anthrax , mad cow disease and a host of other killer agents.

Perhaps this is the time, right now, to start " thinking outside the box " of our nornal range of knowledge and experience to at least try to help one another here on the forum with ANY ideas large or small that might give us an edge. For example...would keeping a caged bird in your office or home signal an immediate chemical threat if the bird died "all of a sudden" in front of you ? You could take the bird to the hospital lab and if it was infected with anthrax, your chances of survival would be immediate provided the medication was available .

I guess that is thinking outside the box, and could be considered crazy or a step forward in a whole new arena of survival.

Any thoughts?
 
Try to avoid such situations, and if it does happen hope that you don't die? I can't really think of anything. It's not like a nuclear attack where you can grab a bunch of food and build a quick shelter in the basement and hope that you didn't get a lethal dose. If you get infected, you get infected, and unless you get immediate treatment it will probably do what it is supposed to do. So unless you have a supply of chemical suits, decon equipment, medications relevant to NBC attacks and pressurized shelter(and means to keep it pressurized without contaminating the inside), I don't think the chances are that great. That's what really sucks about this stuff, and what makes it work so well.

And if you want to know how well anthrax works, look up the 1979 Sverdlovsk incident - a little bit of info <A HREF=http://www.nbc-med.org/SiteContent/MedRef/OnlineRef/FieldManuals/medman/History.htm>here</A>, and a quick search should bring up more.
 
Crayola,

In order for a mask to be effective, it would have to be worn 24/7, and against certain chemicals, would have to worn 24/7 in conjunction with an NBC suit.

Mike
 
I believe Mike hit the nail square on the head...24/7, month after month/year. If I may add, the mask must fit YOU properly and contain the correct micro filters to block whatever it is you do not want to inhale. Not all organism are of the same size. It is sort of like a water filter and the defeat of micro-organism right down to the bare minimum.

If the mask is at home and you get "hit" at work....well, its too late. If the mask is in your hand and the same thing happens, again probably too late, because most of the agents that will get you cannot be seen, smelt or detected at the point of inhaling.

I have several questions submitted to the Center for Disease control (CDC) in Atlanta, Ga. They are the Bible on such matters and often take forever to answer. Concerning the "caged bird" mentioned above, I narrowed it down to a Sparrow or "other animal, reptile or insect."

Specifically, I hope for a reply as to how I can use one of these creatures to give myself a chance to get treatment before the incubation period develops into a full infection. They will answer and when they do, I'll get back to all of you.

This is a little far-out, but I have been doing some research, testing and developing using various spider webs (cob webbs) as filtration agents along with face masks and other materials. To keep this VERY simple, that material which a spider spins from its body becomes a web full of interesting chemicals, patterns and hopefully life saving materials. The write-up and work is almost done. Then I'll submit it to the CDC for comments...and watch them laugh, maby yes, perhaps no. By the way, I am not in anyway related to or a participant in the great field of medicine. My wife says I'm just a "good old survival boy with some common sence." Still analyzing that one. She on the other hand is Mrs. Medicine Plus.

I do not easily surrender to " there is nothing you can do." ;)

My wife is president of the Michigan chapter of MSIC ( Michigan Society of Infection Control ), which is a group of dedicated doctors, infection control parctitioners, Epolimologists (SP?) and others. Once every 4 months a group of them meet to " Brain Storm " on the question of Bio./Chem. warfare. Interesting...they are working on a set of ID tags , to be worn on your clothing, that will identify a particular dangerous chemical/biological agent and give a person immediate feedback. All I know is that the tag would turn from its neutral color into red, white, pink, blue, yellow, etc. to identify what hit you. Brain Storming only at this point. Ohhh, wish I had some brains. We could get this over with and all of us would know what to do. Until then, if you get a "gas" mask...go 24/7 or skip it.
 
Some chemical agents are not extremely persistent. In other words, they don’t hang around for extended periods of time. Therefore, a gas mask would be practical since you would only need to wear it full time for a period of hours or days. A good rain would wash away many of these substances and others dissipate quickly. The problem is that you would not know which agent was being used and the proper precautions.

If you do have a mask, you would have to have it with you at all times much like many Israelis. Also, a mask without a chem suit would only help in limited situations. Many chemical agents react with your skin. Even if you do have a chem suit, can you decontaminate and do you have a residence with filtered air? Can you imagine having a chem suit and mask, making it thru an attack only to contaminate yourself when you remove the suit and come in contact with the exterior. Wouldn’t you feel dumb? There are many facets to consider. The good news is that chemical attacks are much less likely than biological attacks. A small scale attack like in the Tokyo subway is possible but a large scale attack would be very difficult to pull off.

Regarding bio attacks, the best early warning would be hundreds of people flocking to the emergency rooms – hopefully in another city. If you hear a lot of co-workers developing coughs – be suspicious. Having the proper antibiotics on hand is essential to survive but you must take them before symptoms appear – in the proper dose and for the proper length of time. By the time you begin seeing symptoms, it is very likely that no treatment will be effective. I can not give medical advice but these are published facts.

For nuclear accidents, nothing will help if you are too close to the site (obviously). But, if you are down-wind, you need to protect your thyroid from absorbing radiation. Again, I can not give medical advice but I would recommend getting the proper kind of iodine to saturate the thyroid. Also, there are some items that will bind with radioactive elements and purge them from your body. Apple pectin is one example. Aside from that, stay indoors for several days or weeks.
 
Many sources indicate that gas masks are effective for most biological or chemical attacks. My wife and I keep our masks in the trunk of our cars. If we are hit at work we have them. If we are hit at home we have them.

Take Care,
bug
 
A mask only gives you limited protection against chem. Gas mask are not effective against bio weapons becasue you would have to wear them 24/7 plus you need various other equipment such as gloves outfits etc.. when dealing with bio weapons. Some bio weapons you don't have to breath it in.

Gas Mask only gives you limited protection. I suspect that some of it will be absorb into your body via skin. HOw much damage is done all depends on the type of chemical. You need the who outbreak gear in order to protect yourself fully.

For bio weapons I would suggest that you do your research and ask your doctor for some strong anti biotics if he won't give them to you go down to mexico. The quality may not be the same but its better than nothing. If a huge outbreak does occur.. we be toast cause there not enough meds to go around plus doctors haven't been trained to look for the signs. If you do your reasearch you will know what the signs are, before most doctors these days.
 
The problem is you will not know you've been hit till you go to the Doctor with certin symptoms.The 24/7 is because you often will not know when you are being exposed,therefore you have to wear it all the time,BEFORE the attack whenever that is.

Like the guy in FLA.goes to the doctor sick,hey guess what you've been exposed to anthrax.
 
A mask only gives you limited protection against chem. Gas mask are not effective against bio weapons becasue you would have to wear them 24/7 plus you need various other equipment such as gloves outfits etc.. when dealing with bio weapons. Some bio weapons you don't have to breath it in.

Gas Mask only gives you limited protection. I suspect that some of it will be absorb into your body via skin. HOw much damage is done all depends on the type of chemical. You need the who outbreak gear in order to protect yourself fully.

For bio weapons I would suggest that you do your research and ask your doctor for some strong anti biotics if he won't give them to you go down to mexico. The quality may not be the same but its better than nothing. If a huge outbreak does occur.. we be toast cause there not enough meds to go around plus doctors haven't been trained to look for the signs. If you do your reasearch you will know what the signs are, before most doctors these days.
 
Here is a link to inside the CDC...go to, for example Anthrax and read about the Florida incident from Oct.4th. thro. Oct.8th., if you have an interest. This site also lists many more disease topics and the home address introduces the whole world of CDC..It's "neat."

www.cdc.gov/health/diseases.htm
 
Have you ever seen film of WWI soldiers in trenches wearing GAS MASKS during chemical warfare attacks? Have you ever seen news film of Israelies with GAS MASKS during the Gulf War when Iraq was launching Scuds onto cities in Israel? Have you ever heard in the last weeks that the Center For Disease Control has equipment including vaccines and GAS MASKS to combat Chemical and Biological attacks? Have you ever seen News film of Japanese Emergency Workers wearing GAS MASKS during the Sarin releases? Have you even seen film of American soldiers wearing GAS MASKS during Desert Storm? Do Police wear bullet proof vests 24/7?

For some reason I can't get the link to the following October 2001 article to work properly so I'm inserting it with modifications....


?telegraph.co.uk

Ingredients of a biowarfare arsenal By Roger Highfield

ANTHRAX
How it works : airborne anthrax spores are inhaled. In the lungs, the bacterium multiplies and produces toxins. The disease takes up to four days to take hold. It is not contagious.

Deadly amount: eight thousand spores - a tiny amount - can kill.

Symptoms : flu-like and then the body goes into shock. Will probably be recognised only if a major "flu" outbreak appears, followed by confirmatory blood tests.

Delivery: missiles or low-flying airplanes, such as crop sprayers.

Prevention: gas mask, vaccine.

Treatment: antibiotics.

SMALLPOX

How it works : caused by a virus, the disease has been eradicated though is still considered a threat. There are two approved repositories in Atlanta and Moscow but the extent of clandestine stockpiles is unknown. Takes between seven and 17 days to incubate and is highly transmissible.

Deadly amount: can be spread by fine particles in a single breath of an infected person.

Symptoms : malaise, fever, vomiting, headache and backache at first, then lesions - a rash and eruptions. Gene amplification technology can confirm the diagnosis.

Prevention: vaccination.

Treatment: none, though the anti-viral Cidofovir has shown promise.

BOTULINAL TOXINS

How they work : the most toxic substances by weight. A victim inhales the airborne toxins. After one to five days, paralysis and cardiac arrest occur.

Deadly amount: one billionth of a gram can kill.

Symptoms : nerve palsies, blurred vision and dry mouth and throat. Followed by flaccid paralysis, with weakness and progression to respiratory failure. Symptoms begin as early as 12-36 hours after inhalation but may take several days after exposure to low doses of toxin.

Diagnosis: biowarfare attack should be suspected if many people turn up in hospitals with progressive paralysis.

Delivery: missiles or low-flying airplanes, such as crop sprayers, but the toxin is inactivated by sunlight after a few hours.

Prevention: gas mask, vaccine.

Treatment : early administration of anti-toxin may prevent or decrease progression to respiratory failure and hasten recovery. Ventilatory assistance for respiratory failure.

SARIN

How it works : sarin, like other nerve agents, kills by blocking the action of an enzyme that helps control muscles. The body remains permanently in spasm, notably the nerve that makes the diaphragm expand and contract. Eventually, the victim dies of suffocation.

Deadly amount: one milligram can kill.

Symptoms : in low doses it causes severe headaches and coughing. In higher doses it causes increased perspiration, nausea, vomiting, diarrhoea and breathing difficulties.

Delivery: artillery shells, bombs, landmines, among others.

Prevention: gas mask. The drug pyridostigmine can boost the effectiveness of the injections that are taken during the attack itself.

Treatment : on feeling the first symptoms, soldiers inject atropine citrate and a substance called an oxime, which reverse the effect of the nerve gas and allow the enzyme its work.

VX NERVE GAS

How it works: similar to sarin, it disrupts the nerves that control breathing.

Deadly amount: one milligram can kill.

Symptoms: increased salivation, coughing, runny nose, headache and nausea.

Delivery: artillery shells, bombs, landmines, among others.

Prevention: Gas masks, skin covered by thick clothing.
© Copyright of Telegraph Group Limited 2001. Terms & Conditions of reading.
Commercial information. Privacy Policy.?


Take Care,
bug
 
well the scuds fired from iraq didn't have chemical weapons on board. He was afraid he would get nuked. As far as the attack on japan, uh.. the workers wearing the gas mask came much later after the sarin gas had pretty much disappeared. As for your contentions of world war 1 and the iraq and iran war. If your not expecting it and they launch one at you. and youdon't have your mask on by the time you do, its pretty much too late. As for your statement does le wear bullet proof vest 24/7 . Well if he was on the job 24/7 he better. cause you never know when the next guy you pull over isgoing to pull out a gun. If you were a cop and you worked in a gang area..i dare you not to wear a bullet proof vest all the time when your on the job. The bottom line is you don't know when they are going to attack you. So lets assume that they release sarin gas in a local sports arena. What do you think going to happen to all those people who aren't don't have mask or aren' wearing it. By the time you put it on it probably too late.
 
well the scuds fired from iraq didn't have chemical weapons on board. He was afraid he would get nuked.
Click to expand...

My point is that Israel chooses to use gas masks to protect themselves against chemical weapons. So do I. I don't understand your nuke reference.

As far as the attack on japan, uh.. the workers wearing the gas mask came much later after the sarin gas had pretty much disappeared.
Click to expand...

You are saying the masks might not have protected the Japanese emergency workers had the Sarin concentration been higher. I am saying that the Japanese emergency workers rely on gas masks to protect themselves during a gas attack. Maybe we should too. They know more about it than I do.

As for your contentions of world war 1 and the iraq and iran war. If your not expecting it and they launch one at you. and youdon't have your mask on by the time you do, its pretty much too late.
Click to expand...

If I see people dropping around me, or hear of attacks on the news media, then I am walking to my car and putting on my gas mask. What do you recommend doing?

As for your statement does le wear bullet proof vest 24/7 . Well if he was on the job 24/7 he better. cause you never know when the next guy you pull over isgoing to pull out a gun. If you were a cop and you worked in a gang area..i dare you not to wear a bullet proof vest all the time when your on the job. The bottom line is you don't know when they are going to attack you.
Click to expand...

My point is that cops don't wear their vests 24/7. That doesn't mean vests don't work. It means that sometimes they may get shot, but sometimes they'll put on their vests in dangerous situations. In other words having a vest in the trunk is better than not having one, even if you don't wear it 24/7.

So lets assume that they release sarin gas in a local sports arena. What do you think going to happen to all those people who aren't don't have mask or aren' wearing it. By the time you put it on it probably too late.
Click to expand...

You are right. If the ragheads spray Sarin at a Sports Arena I am in, then I probably won't have time to get the mask from my trunk and I'll die. However if the ragheads spray the Sarin as the game is letting out, I'll run to my car, put on my mask and live.

Here's what the Washington Post says:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33872-2001Oct9.html


Take Care,
bug
 
There doesn't seem to be much we can do about Smallpox. I asked my doctor. It seems that if you've been vaccinated you're safe. There is no need for a booster the Doc said, even if the vaccination was a long time ago.

My grandchildren have not been vaccinated. The Doc says there is no Smallpox vaccine available. It exists, but apparently only in CDC emergency stores not available to my Doc.

Take Care,
bug
 
Hi Bug: That's what I hear also...no smallpox shot. Like anthrax, I guess my question is why. Are they making either or both at the present time? If not, why not? It may be that our professional health orginations in the USA firmly believe the wide-spread threat of biological terrorist attacks are " nil" if not zero. I'm not sure.

I think you made a good point about the masks. It's simple really. It you have one and Know for sure in advance, then placement of this equipment on your person can save a life, all other things being equal ( fit, defect free, filters,ets.). I am glad you have one and sincerely hope we do not have to use them...ever.
 
I asked my doctor. It seems that if you've been vaccinated you're safe. There is no need for a booster the Doc said, even if the vaccination was a long time ago.
Click to expand...

I'm afraid your doctor may be incorrect. CDC material places the effectiveness of the smallpox vaccine at +/- 10 years. The last innoculations (outside of the military and other researchers, if even them) were in 1982. Best guess is we're all vulnerable now.

As to why.. liability is my guess. Some folks apparently have a nasty reaction to the vaccine. If you tried to innoculate all of CONUS, you'ld undoubtedly get a few folks with bad reactions. They can sue. Hence, no vaccines.

Also, the CDC and WHO don't want any more smallpox cultures around than are presently known to exist. To make vaccine, you (typically) need a culture of the virus. Actually, the only two cultures remaining (we know of), were due to be destroyed a couple years ago. They weren't because some forward-looking individual figured they might be needed to produce vaccine in the event of a bioterrorism attack, using culture from an unknown, hidden sample.

-K
 
Originally posted by bug

BOTULINAL TOXINS

How they work : the most toxic substances by weight. A victim inhales the airborne toxins. After one to five days, paralysis and cardiac arrest occur.

Deadly amount: one billionth of a gram can kill.

Symptoms : nerve palsies, blurred vision and dry mouth and throat. Followed by flaccid paralysis, with weakness and progression to respiratory failure. Symptoms begin as early as 12-36 hours after inhalation but may take several days after exposure to low doses of toxin.

Diagnosis: biowarfare attack should be suspected if many people turn up in hospitals with progressive paralysis.

Delivery: missiles or low-flying airplanes, such as crop sprayers, but the toxin is inactivated by sunlight after a few hours.

Prevention: gas mask, vaccine.

Treatment : early administration of anti-toxin may prevent or decrease progression to respiratory failure and hasten recovery. Ventilatory assistance for respiratory failure.
Click to expand...

There are other ways to deliver botulism toxin, namely food. It's a relatively common organism. Virtually any jar of fresh honey (unpastuerized) honey will be loaded with botulism, but the environment in the adult human intestine isn't sufficiently anaerobic for it to multiply and produce it's toxic byproducts. Note that this is not true for small children, who may die from eating honey.

More details at:
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/diseases/foodborn/botulism.htm

To make this relavent to the current discussion, I'd wondered if bot toxin could be inserted into a municipal water supply. We had a case here in WA a few years back where an bird died in a water storage tower and contaminated the entire tank. Several people got ill, and water to the entire town was shut off for a few days. With something as fatal as Bot, the first warning might be people all around you dropping like flies. Pretty scarry.

Patrick
 
Patrick-
Thank you for the CDC link. I found this

CDC literature stated...Routine vaccination against smallpox ended in 1972. The level of immunity, if any, among persons who were vaccinated before 1972 is uncertain; therefore, these persons are assumed to be susceptible.
Click to expand...

K-
You are right and my Doc wrong. See above from Patrick's CDC link. It seems none of us are protected. I'll notify the Doc.


Take Care,
bug
 
I say, if within your means, procure gas masks for yourself and your family.

Respiratory protection is probably better to have, than not to have. Now, before all the naysayers get worked-up, hear me out. I'm not suggesting a gas mask is a cure-all; I'm just advocating it as a way to "hedge your bets."

My three main points assume a properly-fitted, well-constructed gas mask with proper NBC-rated filter:

1) If a gas mask alone--without NBC suit--affords any protection from even a few of the many types biological or chemical attacks or even from just smoke-inhalation; then its better to have one and have it be of possible use, than have nothing whatsoever.

Everyone understands that a gas mask is not effective against ALL types of biological or chemical attack--but NOT being omnipotent against bio-chem attack doesn't negate having one as a wise precaution.

If nothing else, having a gas mask will assist you in getting out of a burning building by protecting you from smoke-inhalation which generally kills people before the actual fire does.

2) A gas mask is most effective (and mighty comforting) for those not at "Ground Zero" of an bio-chem attack in which a gas mask alone affords the appropriate level of protection.

I'm sure those MANY of the riders on the Tokyo subway would have found a gas mask quite useful in the Terrorist's sarin attack--especially those in the adjacent cars or platform--i.e. on the periphery of the immediate area of the actual chemical release.

As many have already pointed out, you're not going to wear your mask 24/7. However, if you're not at ground zero of a "mask-alone"-survivable attack; I'd bet you pay big bucks at that moment to have a quality gas mask to wear while bugging out. Same goes for your family and loved ones.

Yes, this would require you to carry your mask with you; but is it that much of a burden to put in your briefcase or backpack--especially while in high-density, public areas or commuter conveyances?

3) The only "downside" to owning a gas mask is the financial burden of procuring them.

Now, this burden varies from individual to individual. Worse case scenario is you "wasted" some money--but am I naive to think that forumites here on Bladeforums.com don't "waste" money on their toys all the time (i.e. knives). Plus, you could always re-sell the masks and mitigate the financial burden should you desire.

Just my $0.02.

Ron (guncollector)
 
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