Blade Forums Customs Forum-Are we changing?

[Kevin Jones]

At first I thought it was just me, however after a half dozen or so long-time members have communicated (both on and off-line)
that they are noticing the same changes to our customs forums content over the last 12 months or so, I realize it’s possibly
not just me.

What am I referring to?

When I stumbled onto Blade Forums about 6 years ago I was delighted to find a community where a great cross section of “knife nuts”
would meet to share beautiful knives, share stories and take part in an outstanding learning opportunity from productive
knife critique, to the provocative, thought provoking and interesting threads that were always present and active
on the forum. Blade Forums was my first “on-line forum” experience and I quickly realized all I had been missing over my previous
years of custom knife collecting by not having found the BF earlier.

So what’s possibly been missing over recent months?

Productive and educational knife critiques:

In the past when knives were posted some members would chime in with comments as to what they liked and disliked about the knives.
This was usually done in a polite, constructive and productive manner, unfortunately sometimes not. I expect many of us have learned
quite a bit over the years about custom knife quality and design as a result of these critiques. We rarely see these critiques anymore.
Recently, I have seen knives posted up with substantial defects yet post after post followed stating how beautiful these knives were.

Who benefits from this?

The knifemaker or collector posting the knife doesn’t benefit, as they miss a learning opportunity that may help them make or purchase
better knives in the future.

The custom knife forum community as a whole doesn’t benefit because we are delivering a message that customs knives that may cost
between $250 to thousands are perfectly acceptable with these defects.
If the poster of the knife, whether knifemaker or collector, isn’t comfortable accepting both positive and negative opinions, then they
have the option to not post up the knife.

Provocative, thought provoking threads:

For the most part we progress as a result of identifying, addressing and discussing issues which affect the custom knife community.
Unfortunately, whenever there’s discussion on provocative topics where opinions/views are certainly going to differ there is risk of
arguments and conflict. At times these disagreements have gotten out of control. I’m not proud to say that I’ve been involved in
some of these.
I know many times I have had a change of opinion as a result of discussion and other’s opinions being presented in these threads.
It’s very positive and productive when information is shared via discussion by a cross section of individuals on a subject giving all a
wider view helping them to more accurately form their own opinions.

I can think of quite a few members (I won’t name to avoid putting them on the spot) who regularly created these discussion threads
in the past but have stopped. At one period of time I was trying to start at least one of these threads per week.
You can find dozens of them under recent threads in my profile.
I’m not saying these treads have totally disappeared (David Darom started a good one yesterday) just that they are far and few in between
as opposed to having several active at a given time in the past.

So ALL, do you feel the Blade Forums Customs Forum “has” changed?

If so, do you feel the new meeker, gentler, avoid controversy BF Custom Forums is a positive or negative thing for both the forum and the community?

As always, I thank you in advance for your interest and participation, opinions and views.

 

[Ellis]

I understand Kevin but I have also seen folks get their hands slapped for voicing very educated opinions. Online can be a very interesting place, critiquing somone's "art" can also be a very interesting proposition, put the two together and there can be some tremendous explosions.

I personally generally refrain from posting critiques.

Dave

 

[David Stifle]

As an outsider to this forum, I seem to remember this place as a place where flame wars could erupt at the drop of a hat and some critiques could get unduly brutal. Major ego's seemed to play hard here. So, do I think the newer civility is nice, yes. Maybe people simply decided to get along? Just my humble opinion and as usual, I reserve the right to be wrong

 

[Kevin Jones]

I understand Kevin but I have also seen folks get their hands slapped for voicing very educated opinions. Online can be a very interesting place, critiquing somone's "art" can also be a very interesting proposition, put the two together and there can be some tremendous explosions.

I personally generally refrain from posting critiques.

Dave

You make good points Dave. And you being a knife dealer puts you in a awkward position too, much the same way guys like Coop would have
to be very careful delivering opinions / critiques etc.

But then on the other hand, guys like you and our good friend STeven (an others) have most likely forgotten more knife knowledge than most of us can
ever hope to have, so your input/opinions are very important. I have learned so much from STeven's critiques even though I don't always agree with them.
His critiques here have been priceless over the years even though most us agree that his delivery could definitely be much softer.

As a result of the last critique he posted months ago (it I remember correctly, which I agreed with) he was cut-off at the knees and has not posted one since.

 

[Kevin Jones]

As an outsider to this forum, I seem to remember this place as a place where flame wars could erupt at the drop of a hat and some critiques could get unduly brutal. Major ego's seemed to play hard here. So, do I think the newer civility is nice, yes. Maybe people simply decided to get along? Just my humble opinion and as usual, I reserve the right to be wrong

I will agree with you David, even though I feel we have lost some of the educational aspects and positives associated with our in-depth discussion of important issues.
Don't get me wrong, as I appreciate seeing the beautiful knife photos more than most, however seems this forum used to be more. Too bad some of us (me included at times)
couldn't acted more respectful towards one another during these discussions.

 

[Dave Behrens]

I think a lot of the overly positive commentary is directed towards "newer" or less experienced makers, in a kind(although misguided) attempt at encouragement to continue the craft, or the critiquer just doesn't want anyone to "feel bad". I have posted several knives I have made and always requested honest critique but never received any. I am one of those less experienced makers IMO.

Also I think there is an almost cultural shift in the knife world. More and more makers(and collectors) are becoming more interested in making/collecting a purely functional tool, rather than a "work of art". The popularity of all that is "Survival" and "Tactical" only adds to that shift(negatively IMO). While I choose function over form, Fit/Finish, and overal quality does matter to me, and I hope for critique that will help me improve my skills.

This change you speak of is not limited to BF or the knife world. Most people cannot handle any sort of disagreemant with their world view be they educated or not. Their are many on this forum who have forgotten more about knives/knifemaking than I will ever know. I have seen some of these "educated" people, roll into a thread with the sole(seemingly) intent of tearing someone down, then when someone disagrees, that "educated" person essentially "takes their ball and goes home". Some of these highly educated people, also hate when anyone disagrees with their "educated" opinion. Just as well, it does seem that lately people have much thinner skin, especially the younger crowds.

In short, the knifeworld is changing, the older crowd(educated) doesn't like how it is changing, and the younger crowd can't handle criticism.

 

[Mike Turner]

Kevin, I do miss the critiques we had some years back. I have personally learned a lot from them even if it was not my knife, it gave me great insight to how others viewed a particular knife. Currently if I post a knife and all I get is great knife comments I will ask those that I see as peers off forum for critique and be brutally honest.

Just for the record constructive comments whether positive and negative are always welcome on any knife I post. I am here to learn not stroke my ego.

Great thread Kevin thanks for posting.

 

[Kevin Jones]

^ Again, good points David Behrens.
When critiquing (whether on-line or in person) I will always try to identify both positives and negatives with the knife.
I have seen photos and examined thousands upon thousands of custom knives (until 12 months ago I attended 5-7 knife shows per year)
and there have only been a VERY SMALL number pieces that were either too bad not to find at least one positive or too good not to find at least
one negative attribute.
Critiques can be done in a way that no one "should be" affended.

 

[harkamus]

I think you make great points. But IMO, a custom knife that costs, as you said, 250 dollars with defects - while not desired - is okay given the extent of the defect when compared to a custom knife that costs multiple times more. I know I'm not the only person around here that feels that minor cosmetic defects on a knife are okay. What's okay to me is directly proportional to cost. A knife I'm paying 750+ dollars for should be absolutely 100% perfect. I'm a perfectionist by nature, and when I buy things, I expect perfection in the product as well, but I realize everyone is human and what one person finds perfect could be imperfect to other people. I guess in the end, I balance what my expectations are with the price that I paid for an item.

Make no mistake though, if there is something that is a gross defect, I will not stand for it even if it's a 100 dollar knife, let alone one that costs 250 or more.

I find that it also helps to have a little knowledge of other philosophies when buying certain knives from people of different origin. Buying from a Japanese maker for example, I'm inclined to be okay with a little discord because of what they call wabi-sabi. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabi_sabi

Rhetoric: Is an imperfect custom knife that to the buyer's eyes is perfect any less of a custom knife? By all accounts the buyer sees no flaws at all.

 

[betzner]

Kevin-

I wonder if it's just a co-incidence that the "Who's Online" section was just brought back today, after David's and your posts began to appear, or if it's because of them. We'll probably never know, but now we can, more or less, at least see who's "in the room". And that's a good thing.

As for your questions, seems like you are right with respect to the changed nature of this subforum. Lots of atta-boys, very little honest critique. Opinions, of course, are always encouraged and given, but very little honest critique. In this respect, I refer to the knives themselves, not the manner in which they are presented in the subforum.

Best,

Bob

 

[Dave Behrens]

I think another conflicting issue, is no two people really agree 100% with what is a flaw or not. Like Hark said, when it is all said and done, the only opinion that matters it that of the buyer. Dave S. is right as well, huge, out-of-control egos on both sides has made honest, civilized critique/discussion virtually extinct on this forum. 90%(anecdotal) of the knives posted lately receive nary a comment, but several hundred views. It just seems everyone on both sides is too defensive about their own self-image, and/or public image, to give or receive criticism.

Another field were this happens way to much, is whenver the subject of Metallurgy, specifically steel vs. steel comes up. Someone seeking advice or knowledge, asks a very simple question, and in no time at all "The Educated Ones" are giving overly complicated, condescending answers(often only based on data) and ignore any "real-world" experiences from "the ignorant masses". Sorry started to rant there a little.

 

[ddd]

At first I thought it was just me, however after a half dozen or so long-time members have communicated (both on and off-line)
that they are noticing the same changes to our customs forums content over the last 12 months or so, I realize it’s possibly not just me........ Recently, I have seen knives posted up with substantial defects yet post after post followed stating how beautiful these knives were.........

Kevin, I think that here you have mentioned the issue that
bothered me most during the past 6-7 months. I cannot bring myself
to comment even most politely about relatively not-so-well-constructed
knives so I pass on to the next thread and the next, eventually giving up.

In short three things have happened lately to BF:

1. Less exciting custom knives than I remember from past years are
displayed or discussed - and not because they are not being constantly
created all over the world!

2. Less exciting issues are being brought forward for debate...

3. Some of the more exciting "discussion figures" do not frequent
the BF any more...

Great THREAD, Kevin, I do hope that it will trigger a change -
even going back to the "old days" is good enough for me!

All the best,
David Darom (ddd)

 

[2knife]

Kevin,
In many good threads there have been large ego battles between Roger, you and others- including myself. I found it poisons the atmosphere when this happens. The end result is often one of regret- no concensus/ solutions, only an argument that lingers on and can taint one's view of the participants and wish these would come to a better conclusion. Then there are those who only like to watch- the popcorn and soda crowd. If the content suffers it is a result of these things. Meaningful content and critique is not the predominant attitude here. Flippant remarks by the casual observer is more likely.
On making these critiques, what value are they? Saying someone's handles appear too long, or short, or use of materials is a poor choice- these are all subjective opinions.. There are probably factual things one might be correct to point out, but the circumstances of each maker may be different than the next. Is it fair to judge everything by the same broad brush-stroke?
No one needs to be glorified in the sense of collecting knives. And, neither do makers need to be ridiculed for their work. There is a personal connection to ones own work. Saying it is junk is a disservice to their efforts.
David

 

[Marcel54]

Kevin, to answer your question......yes we are changing. Besides the points you're making I think the types of knife that are presented in this forum is changing too. Besides the brilliant thread by Coop I believe I don't see as many "art knives" shown as in the past. For me that is a shame, but that's just because I'm into that type of knife. I notice the same on the for sale forum. Besides the occasional beauty it's been ages ago since a great looking "art knife" (folder, bowie or dagger) appeared for sale. All in all for me it makes BF less interesting then a few years ago.

Marcel

 

[Daniel Fairly Knives]

Great thread!

I think tactful and constructive criticism can only benefit the knife community as a whole and I personally would appreciate seeing it here.

On the other hand comments that reflect your personal preference in construction technique or material choice can often not be helpful. (as an example - just because you don't like linerlocks doesn't mean hat they flawed in construction or design) It seems that traditional designs do better here.

When I make a knife I always have an overall goal I want to accomplish with it, to make it purpose oriented and well suited for the tasks at hand. I'd like to see comments on how well that was done.

(of course I always listen to any comment, when everybody mentions that they want to see a linerlock when I post a friction folder I am certainly taking note! )

 

[Kevin Jones]

Kevin,
In many good threads there have been large ego battles between Roger, you and others- including myself. I found it poisons the atmosphere when this happens. The end result is often one of regret- no concensus/ solutions, only an argument that lingers on and can taint one's view of the participants and wish these would come to a better conclusion. Then there are those who only like to watch- the popcorn and soda crowd. If the content suffers it is a result of these things. Meaningful content and critique is not the predominant attitude here. Flippant remarks by the casual observer is more likely.
On making these critiques, what value are they? Saying someone's handles appear too long, or short, or use of materials is a poor choice- these are all subjective opinions.. There are probably factual things one might be correct to point out, but the circumstances of each maker may be different than the next. Is it fair to judge everything by the same broad brush-stroke?
No one needs to be glorified in the sense of collecting knives. And, neither do makers need to be ridiculed for their work. There is a personal connection to ones own work. Saying it is junk is a disservice to their efforts.
David

David, I agree I have acted like an ass in past threads (third time I have admitted it in the thread) but will disagree as I feel that
good has still come from some of these same threads in spite of the my, your and other's poor behavior. You have not seen this type
behavior from me in the last year or so and will no longer see it in the future.

I also disagree that polite, productive and positive knife critique does not have value. Case in point, two recent knives posted here
with significant construction flaws (one was probably a $2500 piece) which will most likely present serious issues in the future.
Posts after post of "outstanding", "at a boys", "beautiful" etc. etc. from knowledgeable knifemakers, collectors and so on.
A lot of new knifemakers and collectors spend time on this forum who are influenced by these posts thus accepting these conditions
as acceptable.

And David, IMO, under no circumstances should a knifemaker ever be ridiculed or their work called junk as a result of a critique.

 

[harkamus]

I think there are also levels of custom. There is custom, and then there is custom like posted in the SharpByCoop sticky. Those customs in Sharp's thread are often times light years more intricate and advanced on a design and aesthetic level than the other customs. The skill level difference between knifemakers of that sticky thread versus many of the other custom makers that post here is, quite frankly, night and day. Consequently, those knives in the sticky are great knives to look at IMO, but definitely not something I would want to use if I came into possession of one of them. Granted, there are a few pieces in that thread that I wouldn't mind throwing through the ringer.

In the end there are customs that are functional that you display and customs that are functional that you actually use. And this is purely anecdotal, but I feel that most custom makers here make knives for the latter reason.

 

[Kevin Jones]

I think there are also levels of custom. There is custom, and then there is custom like posted in the SharpByCoop sticky. Those customs in Sharp's thread are often times light years more intricate and advanced on a design and aesthetic level than the other customs. The skill level difference between knifemakers of that sticky thread versus many of the other custom makers that post here is, quite frankly, night and day. Consequently, those knives in the sticky are great knives to look at IMO, but definitely not something I would want to use if I came into possession of one of them. Granted, there are a few pieces in that thread that I wouldn't mind throwing through the ringer.

In the end there are customs that are functional that you display and customs that are functional that you actually use. And this is purely anecdotal, but I feel that most custom makers here make knives for the latter reason.

I believe the truly "Great Custom Knives" are the ones which can pass as beautiful Art, yet can and will perform and hold up to the highest knife standards of today.
We have knifemakers on this forum that make these knives as well.

 

[sheathmaker]

Kevin, Yes it has changed dramatically. Some of the posters I enjoyed reading have slipped into the cracks and I miss them. As a result, I myself have quit posting as much although I still visit and read a lot.

My opinions just that, MY OPINION, and generally when I voice it, I don't mince words or necessarily try to be politically correct. There has been a lot of what in MY opinion are sub standard knives posted here lately. The praise heaped upon these knives and their makers is almost sickening. I'm wondering if the people who give the beautiful, great work, atta boy etc. would do if they were asked to back up their 'Flowery opinions" as posted with a solid offer to buy. Don't see much of that. Of course I realize this is also not the forum for buying and selling, but you get what I mean.

I don't feel I have the time to get into a back and forth dialogue defending my opinion/s so the course of least resistance is not to post at all. I think this may be happening all around you. The volume of posts from the "old guard" has dropped off dramatically.

In summation, If I see something worthy of my true praise, I will post and voice that praise. If, on the other hand someone posts up pure crap, my silence is meant to speak louder than words.

Paul

 

[harkamus]

I believe the truly "Great Custom Knives" are the ones which can pass as beautiful Art, yet can and will perform and hold up to the highest knife standards of today.
We have knifemakers on this forum that make these knives as well.

Well yea, that's exactly what I meant. By functional I meant that they could be used to the highest standards that a knife could be tasked with.