Blade Forums Customs Forum-Are we changing?

[SharpByCoop]

My name has come up often. I am thankful to be in such high esteem.

One of the things STeven (Kohai99) told me (in private) was my posts bear more weight than the average poster. It was for this reason he openly fought with me on my position on a past display thread. We made up (I hope), but that impression has stuck with me.

I so rarely like getting involved in conflictual and opinionated discussions. it takes a LOT of mental energy to respond and figure out my position.

This is the benefit, though: By being involved it causes us to think hard about *why* we have this opinion, and then how to convey the message properly.

Not everyone has the energy or the communication skills. Or the emotional fortitude. Typing quickly can get troublesome. We've all seen it.


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I saw a new maker whose work was posted and he asked for opinions. It was unfinished and raw. I started to write an honest comeback simply allowing that he should NEVER post half finished knives for display unless it's a W.I.P.

I bailed. For me to offer a negative comment, is throwing a stab at a a member of a community I who earns me a partial living. And even if I'll never work with him, other makers are watching my words. Like Paul Long offered, my silence was smarter than my words.

So, I'm in a unique position. Dave Ellis, in the second post said he also feels uncomfortable with any critique. He's like me in many ways.

From a business standpoint, I do well to offer praise. Sometimes more than necessary? I'm guilty as charged.

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Funny, in the past we've discussed how, unless honest critique is asked for, it's rarely going to be received well. One thought: Create one of those post title banners: "Opinions wanted". Once that's in the title, then the natives will circle the wagons. See how infrequent it may be used, though.

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Good stuff being tossed out here.

Coop

 

[jdm61]

I have been a member here for 14 yrs and I feel that this particular area of the forum, which is to discuss custom knives in general has become a fixed blade bias forum. There are a handful of folder makers that post knives on a consistent basis but for the most part it is all fixed blades.

Now THAT is a very interesting observation which i am kind of inclined to agree with. I don't think that it is "bad" or even intentional, but it does wring somewhat true. I might go even farther and say that there sometimes appears to be a slight bias toward FORGED fixed blades just because the who tends to post the most on here. Obviously, I don't have a problem with that personally. Just making an observation.

 

[Lorien]

I posted a thread in here some time ago where I went about building the first knife I ever tried building, (http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/632009-Uh-oh!-Not-a-knife-yet). I had no real clue what I was doing, other than what I previously learned from this forum.

I'm no knife maker.

That thread helped me big time; I got tons of great advice from world class makers, support from world class collectors and the best part was that people told me the thread helped get them interested in making knives.
This is not some elitist, exclusive forum- it's open to any and all interested in participating. That's what makes it special, and also what makes it hard to define.

 

[firebolt]

I think that there is a fine line between critique and personal preference.

my thoughts exac
and in my opinion you can only judge a knife good, by handling it, feel the balance, check for even lines left side to right side

a picture tells you only so much, and a video clip even less

but i also have a feeling giving criticism is not done,
due the fact of big hurds off fan boys who will kill any type off criticism

so i keep most off it to my self,

 

[butcher_block]

i only post here to get feedback (at a boys are nice too but need to be warranted ) i also post and read hrer to see whre the costom knife works is at in the every changing styles (not that i fit in well with razors and kitchen knives )
its also nice ot see what are the choice handle blocks are be it a type of wood ot ivory (again trend spotting )

 

[Dave Behrens]

Criticism can be a very helpful, and constructive means to aid in skill improvement. There is a big difference between simply voicing your opinion. and offering "constructive criticism". Simply calling something/someone crap, stupid, phony, garbage etc, what does that accomplish? If a legitimate FLAW, beyond personal pref. is present, and you(whoever YOU are) can offer constructive advice and tips of how to correct said flaw, that is what I would love to see on this forum.

I believe, too often, "critics" are just cynical people who NEED to voice their opinion, NEED to be heard, NEED people to agree, and NEED to be right. But it is possible to offer constructive crituque w/ out becoming a "critic".

 

[ArtinNC]

Why I have just about left and become one of ((Then there are those who only like to watch- the popcorn and soda crowd. ))) because of a lot of smartelick statements and making fun of something that someone that isn't in the in crowd.

 

[RogerP]

Two of the biggest problems I see with critiques are:

1) They are most often made by those who have never themselves made a knife and held it up for scrutiny. They may well be possessed of an exceedingly high level of expertise, but never having stood in the shoes of those they criticize, they don't perhaps appreciate the blood sweat and tears that goes into the product regardless of the ultimate result. Such experience, I suspect, might well produce more truly constructive criticism and less contemptuous dismissal of another's efforts that the individual offering the critique couldn't hope to match.

2) Too often, FAR too often, personal preference is arbitrarily elevated to a rule of general application - with the consequent dismissal of a different approach / method / choice / aesthetic preference as being flawed or inferior. I find this unhelpful in the extreme and it advances absolutely nothing beyond the ego of the person making the statement.

As for my approach to offering critique - I do so when asked. If a maker posts up a "Hey check out my new knife!' thread, I generally don't critique. If a maker says "I'd really be interested to hear thoughts on what you like, what you don't and how I could make this piece better" I will oblige. As others have mentioned, I find far more of that takes place off-forum than on.

Just to be clear - I'm just saying that's my approach - it's certainly not the only way to go about things. Some feel that any knife posted is up for criticism - fine - go ahead. Just try to be actually constructive and try also to bring the same thickness of skin you expect of the maker you are critiquing.

Roger

 

[David Stifle]

I just don't agree with much of what has been posted. To me, this particular forum has dumbed down. I see no reason to see a "gee, look at my first knife" in this particular forum. A new or intermediate maker should post his/her work in the makers forum, and hone their skills there. I just think this forum should be a place for higher level blades. If it isn't, then how is it different than any other of dozens of look at me sites? Do you honestly feel you are going to unlease your whole attention on a low or intermediate maker, and take the time to offer a well thought out critique? Or, on the other hand, when you look at a blade from an advanced maker who asks for a critique, do you realize you are now talking to a person who has put in many years and will listen to your opinion? Clearly though, this site isn't the lively spot it used to be; there are other knife forums who have collectors forums, they are uniformily dull. I hope this forum rebounds, but without the old wars. As always, this is just my personal opinion, and I never try to offend anyone, I hope I haven't.

My post landed behind Rogers. He has some excellent point regarding critiques. Nevertheless, it's the nature of experts, critics, etc., to state opinions, regardless of actual working-level quals. Just the way it is...

 

[Snody]

Two of the biggest problems I see with critiques are:

1) They are most often made by those who have never themselves made a knife and held it up for scrutiny. They may well be possessed of an exceedingly high level of expertise, but never having stood in the shoes of those they criticize, they don't perhaps appreciate the blood sweat and tears that goes into the product regardless of the ultimate result. Such experience, I suspect, might well produce more truly constructive criticism and less contemptuous dismissal of another's efforts that the individual offering the critique couldn't hope to match.

2) Too often, FAR too often, personal preference is arbitrarily elevated to a rule of general application - with the consequent dismissal of a different approach / method / choice / aesthetic preference as being flawed or inferior. I find this unhelpful in the extreme and it advances absolutely nothing beyond the ego of the person making the statement.

As for my approach to offering critique - I do so when asked. If a maker posts up a "Hey check out my new knife!' thread, I generally don't critique. If a maker says "I'd really be interested to hear thoughts on what you like, what you don't and how I could make this piece better" I will oblige. As others have mentioned, I find far more of that takes place off-forum than on.

Just to be clear - I'm just saying that's my approach - it's certainly not the only way to go about things. Some feel that any knife posted is up for criticism - fine - go ahead. Just try to be actually constructive and try also to bring the same thickness of skin you expect of the maker you are critiquing.

Roger

Thats a great post B..
I have always enjoyed your approach to this subject in general.
Much Respect.

 

[Snody]

I just don't agree with much of what has been posted. To me, this particular forum has dumbed down. I see no reason to see a "gee, look at my first knife" in this particular forum. A new or intermediate maker should post his/her work in the makers forum, and hone their skills there. I just think this forum should be a place for higher level blades. If it isn't, then how is it different than any other of dozens of look at me sites? Do you honestly feel you are going to unlease your whole attention on a low or intermediate maker, and take the time to offer a well thought out critique? Or, on the other hand, when you look at a blade from an advanced maker who asks for a critique, do you realize you are now talking to a person who has put in many years and will listen to your opinion? Clearly though, this site isn't the lively spot it used to be; there are other knife forums who have collectors forums, they are uniformily dull. I hope this forum rebounds, but without the old wars. As always, this is just my personal opinion, and I never try to offend anyone, I hope I haven't.

Now this is Gospel... Preach.
Sigline material right here.

Respect.

 

[Mike Craddock]

Yes, I think It's changed a lot. I post up pictures of my knives to get comments and openions from others.
There has been times that I got comments that made me change the way I was doing things. If I don't think the comments or openions will inprove my work I just let it pass.

I use this forum as a learning tool. If I don't get any comments good or bad I learn nothing.

Thanks for this post Kevin

Mike

 

[MVF]

Two of the biggest problems I see with critiques are:

1) They are most often made by those who have never themselves made a knife and held it up for scrutiny. They may well be possessed of an exceedingly high level of expertise, but never having stood in the shoes of those they criticize, they don't perhaps appreciate the blood sweat and tears that goes into the product regardless of the ultimate result. Such experience, I suspect, might well produce more truly constructive criticism and less contemptuous dismissal of another's efforts that the individual offering the critique couldn't hope to match.

2) Too often, FAR too often, personal preference is arbitrarily elevated to a rule of general application - with the consequent dismissal of a different approach / method / choice / aesthetic preference as being flawed or inferior. I find this unhelpful in the extreme and it advances absolutely nothing beyond the ego of the person making the statement.

As for my approach to offering critique - I do so when asked. If a maker posts up a "Hey check out my new knife!' thread, I generally don't critique. If a maker says "I'd really be interested to hear thoughts on what you like, what you don't and how I could make this piece better" I will oblige. As others have mentioned, I find far more of that takes place off-forum than on.

Just to be clear - I'm just saying that's my approach - it's certainly not the only way to go about things. Some feel that any knife posted is up for criticism - fine - go ahead. Just try to be actually constructive and try also to bring the same thickness of skin you expect of the maker you are critiquing.

Roger

So only makers should be allowed to critique? I think you'll find in many art forms that even the most highly respected critics are not practitioners. And why should they be? I don't have to know how to design or build a car to know how it looks or handles. The same with painting, movies, theater, etc.

It sounds like you're saying that if, having made a few knives and knowing how hard it can be to accomplish certain facets of the art, I would then be less critical of a less than excellent end result - or do I misunderstand you? I think that sentiment (if I am understanding correctly) undermines the function and value of criticism. Critics are not (necessarily) mentors.

 

[RogerP]

So only makers should be allowed to critique? I think you'll find in many art forms that even the most highly respected critics are not practitioners. And why should they be? I don't have to know how to design or build a car to know how it looks or handles. The same with painting, movies, theater, etc.

It sounds like you're saying that if, having made a few knives and knowing how hard it can be to accomplish certain facets of the art, I would then be less critical of a less than excellent end result - or do I misunderstand you? I think that sentiment (if I am understanding correctly) undermines the function and value of criticism. Critics are not (necessarily) mentors.

I did not say that only makers should be allowed to critique. I said that having the experience of holding one's own work up to scrutiny can temper some of the gratuitous harshness sometimes seen and lead to a more constructive approach. Or at least, that's what I was getting at.

Roger

 

[MVF]

I agree with that, but it still sounds to me more like mentoring than criticism - not that there's anything wrong with that. I also agree that criticism doesn't need to be harshly delivered. It seems to me (in the spirit of this thread) that the changes in this subforum are in some part the result of an intolerance of criticism.

 

[David Stifle]

Thanks Snody, and respect back.

 

[Justin King]

I think this statement-

2) Too often, FAR too often, personal preference is arbitrarily elevated to a rule of general application - with the consequent dismissal of a different approach / method / choice / aesthetic preference as being flawed or inferior. I find this unhelpful in the extreme and it advances absolutely nothing beyond the ego of the person making the statement.

Says an awful lot about this statement-

The reality is quite simple. If a knifemaker posts work here before seeking personal hands on guidance from a skilled professional knifemaker then he is an idiot and it does not matter what you criticize because he will always be an idiot.



Honestly, if a someone calls themselves a Knifemaker and they have not had their work critiqued one on one by world class makers then they are phony and all the positive criticism in the world can not help them..

With all due respect, it is world-class buyers, not other makers (world class or not) who determine who is a phony, who is an idiot, and who is a professional knifemaker. I have always respected your style and approach to the business, Snody, but I think that was a pretty thoughtless thing to say, and it says a lot about where the forum is headed, in an ironic sort of way.

 

[Snody]

I think this statement-


Says an awful lot about this statement-





With all due respect, it is world-class buyers, not other makers (world class or not) who determine who is a phony, who is an idiot, and who is a professional knifemaker. I have always respected your style and approach to the business, Snody, but I think that was a pretty thoughtless thing to say, and it says a lot about where the forum is headed, in an ironic sort of way.

Exactly my point.
If a Knifemaker does not have enough respect for the top collectors in the world to seek out professional guidance BEFORE posting his work in front of said collectors then he is an idiot.. I have dedicated 16 years to this craft. I drove thousands of miles to seek instruction from the Top Makers in the United States before ever posting my work before the Top Collectors.. I am just telling the truth man, I am not trying to be thoughtless. If anything these new guys should send me a check $$ for my advice.. Get your business straight, get professional, personal guidance from a successful maker, get Good Pictures and then post.. You post a crappy picture of a junky knife, it will always be in the archives when people google your name.....
Much Respect

 

[Snody]

With all due respect, it is world-class buyers, not other makers (world class or not) who determine who is a phony, who is an idiot, and who is a professional knifemaker. I have always respected your style and approach to the business, Snody, but I think that was a pretty thoughtless thing to say, and it says a lot about where the forum is headed, in an ironic sort of way.

Dude, you are a professional dues paying knifemaker..
Look at the picture below.. It was posted in this forum recently.
This is an example of someone who needs further instruction prior to introducing his work to international collectors.
I hate to be the one to break it down but there aint no collector on a keyboard can help this guy.. You feeling me?
If you came to the Mike Snody School of Knifemaking and told me you posted a picture like this I would call you an idiot in front of the entire class..

 

[JParanee]

Snody does keep it real