Blade Length Question

R

RedWolf4

Joined
Oct 20, 2019
Messages
181
Hi all,

I'm in the market for a full tang tomahawk. I've been eyeing the Winkler Hammer Combat Axe quite a bit. The only thing keeping me from pulling the trigger is the blade length on them. Some sites say it is 2.5 inches, some sites say 2.4. Regardless, it is a short bit.

Every single one of the axes, hatchets and tomahawks I own has a longer blade than this. I emailed Winkler about this (along with some other questions), and Daniel responded and said they designed it this way to have more power for breaching and less cutting for woodcraft.

My primary use for this tomahawk will be woodcraft. I do want it to be able to handle breaching/heavier duty tasks as well, and self defence if needed. (2 Legged creatures but more importantly for my needs/location 4 legged as well ;)).

Wondering on all of your thoughts about this short blade length and how it will handle these tasks (most importantly wood/camp use and possible self defence) compared to a longer blade.

Thanks guys.

P.S. I know there are many other tomahawks out there with longer blades but I already have quite a few and I really, really like everything about the Winkler. I was also impressed by Daniel's detailed response to my many questions, I definitely would be happy to give them my business.
 
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Hey RW4, I can see a few different approaches to this. Probly the most sincere advice I can give is, if you like it, have a use for it and can afford it, just order the darn thing. Your post sounds like you've researched it thoroughly, next step is buy it and get some time on it's clock.

I manage several acres of woodlot, and I favor spike hawks about that size. My favorite one I made about 12 yrs ago with a 2-1/4" curved bit, and it's fine for limbing and small chopping. On the job, I frequently carry a drywall hatchet, 1-5/8"-ish bit on those. I think you'll get used to it, "aim small, miss small" kinda thing. One thing is, the same swing will hit harder with a narrow bit than a wide one, just because the impact is concentrated in a smaller area.

I can't really speak to your self defense question, as I have louder tools for that. In my rural location, the opportunities for self defense and breaching are few and seldom. I did have a chance one time to bust the wing window out of an F-150, after my then-coworker locked his keys in it. Let the record show, I offered to drive my truck up to the farmhouse and get a coat hanger to pop the door. But no, he was in a hurry, something about a girl...

The spike hawk did a tidy job of cleaning the glass shards from the opening. I expect that made a favorable impression on his date.

Parker
 
RedWolf4 said:
I do want it to be able to handle breaching/heavier duty tasks as well, and self defence if needed. (2 Legged creatures but more importantly for my needs/location 4 legged as well ;)).
Wondering on all of your thoughts about this short blade length and how it will handle these tasks .I already have quite a few
Click to expand...

So I guess Ontario, Canada is some sort of war zone? I grew up running through the forests of Pennsylvania as a child with my friends and siblings and family unsupervised and oddly we never had to defend ourselves from two or four-legged "creatures". There were always bear in the area and they never wanted anything to do with anyone, very private creatures, and wild-cats were even more cautious. And if I were attacked by a bear I certainly would want more than a hatchet, as would anyone as it would do you no good at all. It would be interesting to hear some of the stories about how you and those you know have been keeping alive using your hatchets and axes to defend yourselves against the grave threats you face while doing "woodcraft". I would have thought someone who owned "quite a few" axes and hatchets, and with such vast experience chopping animals, people and wood up with them would have some insight on how a shorter blade one one of them would have worked, but since I have only chopped up defenseless trees with mine, I guess I am not going to be qualified to help you until I have had more "combat" experience. Good luck out there !!!!
 
Brent Halverson said:
So I guess Ontario, Canada is some sort of war zone? I grew up running through the forests of Pennsylvania as a child with my friends and siblings and family unsupervised and oddly we never had to defend ourselves from two or four-legged "creatures". There were always bear in the area and they never wanted anything to do with anyone, very private creatures, and wild-cats were even more cautious. And if I were attacked by a bear I certainly would want more than a hatchet, as would anyone as it would do you no good at all. It would be interesting to hear some of the stories about how you and those you know have been keeping alive using your hatchets and axes to defend yourselves against the grave threats you face while doing "woodcraft". I would have thought someone who owned "quite a few" axes and hatchets, and with such vast experience chopping animals, people and wood up with them would have some insight on how a shorter blade one one of them would have worked, but since I have only chopped up defenseless trees with mine, I guess I am not going to be qualified to help you until I have had more "combat" experience. Good luck out there !!!!
Click to expand...

You misinterpreted what I was saying.

I am aware that you were being sarcastic, but I want to reiterate, because I love my country and province. Ontario, Canada is quite far from a "war zone", it's actually the opposite. Friendly people, low crime rates, and animals do not pose a serious threat. I have never had to use a hatchet let alone any tool against a person or wild animal in self defense in my entire life so far. I hope I never have to.

I carry bear spray when I'm in the back country, and I usually carry a knife or hatchet on my person because of their usefulness, and yes, they double as a last ditch self defense option. I would like to be able to carry a pistol or revolver no questions asked, but unfortunately firearm restrictions are fairly strict in this country.

Hatchets are not "no good at all" when it comes to bear attacks. Unlikely to work, yes, but not impossible. A last ditch weapon generally is not ideal. That's why it's called last ditch.

Here's an article about a guy who killed a bear with a hatchet:
https://www.outsideonline.com/2399171/alex-woods-black-bear-attack

Also, self defence was only a factor in deciding to get this hatchet, not the main factor even. Wood cutting performance and practical use is much more important to me.

I just wanted to make sure a small blade can handle self defence type uses to some effectiveness, which I was thinking it could anyway, because as catspa said it concentrates the force more.

I do own a few axes, hatchets and tomahawks, but do not claim to be an expert regarding them at all. That's why I'm asking.

My concern was with slashing type cuts, I'm thinking those will be less effective as there is less edge to cut with. Again, not that important to me, just something I thought I would bring up.
 
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You are a good sport. I will always be amazed that there are $600 "tomahawks" for sale and people who buy them and their marketing. Amazing! I worked in a metal-fab shop as a young man, a real fab shop that made real things for people to use in practical every day life, government contracts etc., not making trendy, fashionable boutique items to market to people with more money than they know what to do with, or who are desperate to participate in those trends or have jewelry for an invented persona. So I know first-hand that most of the price of items like this are not justified. I am sure there is a Chinese factory that could spit out the same tool out of the same materials for $30.
 
A tomahawk blade at 2-1/2" (or less) can work well. Especially with something as heavy as that Winkler.

When I surveyed historic tomahawks, I found most averaged a chopping blade length of about 2", but they also only averaged 8-10 ounces in weight (head and handle). Although a lot of heads were around 2", many were well below that. I've personal used an 1-3/8" edge tomahawk (my own design) and it's light for fast, accurate chops to make wood chips fly--but narrow blades tend to bury into material--more like pecking than chopping.

A lot of the historic heads that were in the 2-1/2"+ blade size had very curved edges, like a semi-circle, which helps increase the contact pressure in the chop. But they were also very light.

That Winkler doesn't have a curved of a blade but it's a whopping 27 ounces. That's a lot of mass and it should chop great. Anything over 12 ounces gets too sluggish for combatives, but that's your last ditch purpose, not your primary purpose.

If you're interested in the really light axes, hit me up. Some of our tomahawks weigh the same as a smart phone. Stay safe and be edgy!
 
RedWolf4 said:
Hi all,

I'm in the market for a full tang tomahawk. I've been eyeing the Winkler Hammer Combat Axe quite a bit. The only thing keeping me from pulling the trigger is the blade length on them. Some sites say it is 2.5 inches, some sites say 2.4. Regardless, it is a short bit.

Every single one of the axes, hatchets and tomahawks I own has a longer blade than this. I emailed Winkler about this (along with some other questions), and Daniel responded and said they designed it this way to have more power for breaching and less cutting for woodcraft.

My primary use for this tomahawk will be woodcraft. I do want it to be able to handle breaching/heavier duty tasks as well, and self defence if needed. (2 Legged creatures but more importantly for my needs/location 4 legged as well ;)).

Wondering on all of your thoughts about this short blade length and how it will handle these tasks (most importantly wood/camp use and possible self defence) compared to a longer blade.

Thanks guys.

P.S. I know there are many other tomahawks out there with longer blades but I already have quite a few and I really, really like everything about the Winkler. I was also impressed by Daniel's detailed response to my many questions, I definitely would be happy to give them my business.
Click to expand...
Did you buy it?
 
Riz! said:
Did you buy it?
Click to expand...

I am confident it will work well for what I will be using it for. But no I haven't bought it, not yet at least. For $600, I'm not taking this purchase lightly. Also, I'm in no rush, it's more of something I want, not need. I might wait around and see if a good deal on one comes up somewhere. But ya I definitely want it.
 
RE: "My primary use for this tomahawk will be woodcraft. I do want it to be able to handle breaching/heavier duty tasks as well,
and self defence ..."

I have used a number of different Winkler Hawks (my primary use of a hawk for me is woodwork related). Each of the Winkler hawks was an excellent example of a quality tool! Well made, excellent ergonomics, materials, etc. However, I would not choose to carry if woodcraft was honestly the primary usage (a hawk lives on my primary bag, or on my hip).

Personal Examples:
Wood cutting edge geometry could be adapted or better optimized for working with wood, but ... would be somewhat contradictory to overall design Daniel implements.
A spike for a poll is in my mind significantly less useful in my woodcraft purposes (it's not uncommon for me to use hawk/baton combo, spiked polls just did not have many daily applications).
Bit length - my preference for wood usage of a hawk is 3” - 3.25" (example: 2.25" CS TrailHawk too narrow vs 3.25" CS F.Hawk about perfect).
I prefer hawk haft length between 17-18" vs 13-14" for generating more impact speed (can anytime choke up for detail work), and increasing reach.

A great inexpensive test related to your primary question (length of bit for your intended usage) might be an inexpensive test between two CS Hawks with 15-17dps bevels applied ”example" above. Years ago did same test (plus many others including Winklers mentioned) to come to my own conclusions based on my usages.

Winkler Hammer Combat Axe is a beaut' of a tool. I am lucky to have good friend with one that lives in his truck, and is there for use.

Hopefully, some valid considerations based on my experiences.
 
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R RedWolf4

I know you are looking for a full tang hawk, but I strongly recommend looking into the American tomahawk model 1. I was gonna PM you but your membership wont let me. you can get one for almost 1/3 of the cost of a winkler so if you do buy you wont feel like you should have just bought the winkler

I use the heck out of mine, mostly for camping tasks and it goes in my pack for every day hike short or long. Its a fantastic tool. Its a drop forged head that is then finished with some machining. They come hair popping sharp and have a fantastic edge for wood cutting. The spike is 1000 times more useful than you would expect. Its actually my main splitting tool for kindling prep. I use it for anything that I dont want to possibly ruin the edge. Its like the multitool side of the tool. The weight is balanced properly and its not too heavy.

I have some full tang hawks and they seem to be more breaching oriented and are too heavy for tossing in a pack for a day hike or even belt carry.

if I was going to go with a full tang for that purpose I try to find something in the 1/4” stock, like a RMJ Kestrel feather.

I also understand that feeling of when you want something you just want it and much of the items in my collections have been bought because of that.

if you buy that winkler take some pics and tell us about it!
 
Riz! said:
R RedWolf4

I know you are looking for a full tang hawk, but I strongly recommend looking into the American tomahawk model 1. I was gonna PM you but your membership wont let me. you can get one for almost 1/3 of the cost of a winkler so if you do buy you wont feel like you should have just bought the winkler

I use the heck out of mine, mostly for camping tasks and it goes in my pack for every day hike short or long. Its a fantastic tool. Its a drop forged head that is then finished with some machining. They come hair popping sharp and have a fantastic edge for wood cutting. The spike is 1000 times more useful than you would expect. Its actually my main splitting tool for kindling prep. I use it for anything that I dont want to possibly ruin the edge. Its like the multitool side of the tool. The weight is balanced properly and its not too heavy.

I have some full tang hawks and they seem to be more breaching oriented and are too heavy for tossing in a pack for a day hike or even belt carry.

if I was going to go with a full tang for that purpose I try to find something in the 1/4” stock, like a RMJ Kestrel feather.

I also understand that feeling of when you want something you just want it and much of the items in my collections have been bought because of that.

if you buy that winkler take some pics and tell us about it!
Click to expand...

I've heard good things about ATC model 1. Mostly from watching gideonstactical review it. Might have to check it out a bit more. For me, not a substitute for a full tang which is definitely what I want, but definitely seems like a pretty awesome and practical tool. And I'm always happy to add awesome and practical tools to my collection!

Realistically I don't plan on buying the Winkler anytime soon (even though there's something about that hawk that is really special I find.) Just taking my time browsing, no rush at all for me. I'm also looking at some RMJs. I've heard nothing but good things as well about them. Most of the full tang hawks I own are on the cheaper side, with the one exception being a Helm forge at $300 (which is a great hawk btw.) Just looking for something new that I don't really need I guess :).
 
Also I saw on ATC'S website they have a model 2 coming soon. Pretty excited to see what that will be. Any ideas? Anyone?
 
Its going to have a hammer poll and a curved bit. They had posted a picture on their instagram of it in the sheath on a guys backpack. I havent seen an unsheathed picture yet
 
Forgot to say that gideonstactical review of that hawk doesnt do it justice. I do like and often watch his reviews and for knives I think he knows his stuff pretty well. But when watching his reviews of hatchets, axes, and hawks, I have kind of come to the conclusion that he doesnt use one other than to review them. Also he clearly doesnt throw hawks, but then does it in a review and misses or almost never gets a stick. I’de never throw my valuable tool and while I can see the entertainment or sporting value of doing it, I think that considering throw-ability as a martial use is just plain rediculous. Maybe it was valid in the frontier times when bows and arrows and muzzle loaders were the norm, but in these times, I find it to be silly and those parts pf reviews carry zero weight for me. Part my opinion comes from his form when swinging them. He never hits where he is aiming, he has often has glancing blows, and he takes these little swings like a bird “pecking”. Another reason for my opinion comes from his gushing over a hardcore hammers hatchet that seems like it was copied from an old worn out carpenters hatchet. Hes convincing though, as I considered trying one of those hardcore hammers because of his review. I never bought it though.
 
Riz thanks for telling me about the instagram pic. I really like what I can see from that profile. I do agree spikes have their uses, but im a hammer poll guy. Also looks like a longer bit than the model 1. Might have to purchase that when its released.

I like gideonstacticals videos for the most part. I agree he is not the most knowledgeable axe man, (and a pretty bad thrower) but I get the sense he knows enough to determine good from bad, and rewatching some of his videos I have to disagree with you a little on his chopping aim and form. Not perfect for sure, but I have seen a lot worse out there.

You reminded me of another question I had. How's the stiffness/flexibility on those American Tomahawks model 1 handles (the nylon/synthetic one)? I have a cold steel trench hawk and its poplypropelene handle is much more flexible than I like. Enough that I feel like it bends and absorbs some force that would otherwise be transferred to the chopping target.
 
The handle definitely doesnt feel like a hickory handle. It has a little flex that you will probably notice the first time you use it but after a little time in hand its a non issue. The connection between handle and head is rock solid. In fact, its so solid that I took the bolt out and tried to wiggle or remove the handle by hand and could not. I then used it with no bolt for a while and it never budged. I think you’de need a press to remove it

The wood handle is different. Ive had it loosen and had to re-handle it twice.

To me the little flex that may be present is worth the overall increase in durability and the strong connection with the head.
 
Brent Halverson said:
So I guess Ontario, Canada is some sort of war zone? I grew up running through the forests of Pennsylvania as a child with my friends and siblings and family unsupervised and oddly we never had to defend ourselves from two or four-legged "creatures". There were always bear in the area and they never wanted anything to do with anyone, very private creatures, and wild-cats were even more cautious. And if I were attacked by a bear I certainly would want more than a hatchet, as would anyone as it would do you no good at all. It would be interesting to hear some of the stories about how you and those you know have been keeping alive using your hatchets and axes to defend yourselves against the grave threats you face while doing "woodcraft". I would have thought someone who owned "quite a few" axes and hatchets, and with such vast experience chopping animals, people and wood up with them would have some insight on how a shorter blade one one of them would have worked, but since I have only chopped up defenseless trees with mine, I guess I am not going to be qualified to help you until I have had more "combat" experience. Good luck out there !!!!
Click to expand...


Brent Halverson said:
You are a good sport. I will always be amazed that there are $600 "tomahawks" for sale and people who buy them and their marketing. Amazing! I worked in a metal-fab shop as a young man, a real fab shop that made real things for people to use in practical every day life, government contracts etc., not making trendy, fashionable boutique items to market to people with more money than they know what to do with, or who are desperate to participate in those trends or have jewelry for an invented persona. So I know first-hand that most of the price of items like this are not justified. I am sure there is a Chinese factory that could spit out the same tool out of the same materials for $30.
Click to expand...

Just a friendly observation - your posts seem to be angry and condescending for no good reason. The original question seemed perfectly clear and humble, and in no way deserving of scorn. If you don’t like the idea of extra-prepared people spending more money than most folks on sharp tools, you might not enjoy this forum very much in the long term...
 
RedWolf4 said:
Wondering on all of your thoughts about this short blade length and how it will handle these tasks (most importantly wood/camp use and possible self defence) compared to a longer blade.
Click to expand...

Shorter blade just means you need a little more time and a little better aim.

These two from H&B Forge (under $100 each) have ~2.5” blades and do woodcrafting just fine...

451B4D67-2427-44A4-9376-2B71921C2631.jpeg
 
scdub said:
Just a friendly observation - your posts seem to be angry and condescending for no good reason. The original question seemed perfectly clear and humble, and in no way deserving of scorn. If you don’t like the idea of extra-prepared people spending more money than most folks on sharp tools, you might not enjoy this forum very much in the long term...
Click to expand...

I noticed this as well. I've seen a couple of Brent's posts on other threads with the same tone as well. I didn't want to say anything and get my back up, cause I have a habit of losing my temper quickly and get in enough arguments in real life as it is. Better for me to stay out of it. And no one knows what other people are dealing with. I can be a jerk when I'm going through a rough time/stressed.

Also I've heard awesome things about H&B, might have to try one one day. Too many blades to buy, not enough money!
 
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