Blade play; Do we make too much over it?

[keithcarter]

The knife i have with me right now is a good example of a drunk working in a dark cave, but I use it more than any other, because it has the perfect combination of blades for my uses.

It's a Wild Boar whittler about 4 1/2 inches long with a long, but only 1/4 inch wide, blade on one end and a thin, short blade on the other end. The long blade really wobbles, but it cuts just fine. I had to file off the sharp edges on the metal ends and wood scales, and used diamonds to sharpen the blade, but now it works and feels just fine. Gaps, oh yeah. and the tip of the long blade rests on something metal inside.

A lot of people would throw this knife in the trash, but I use it every day, lick the cheese or jelly off the blade, and put it back in my pocket.

Beauty is as beauty does.

 

[neeman]

Blade play...one of my favorite subjects

Seriously though, I don't think a knife can be made "too good". They should be made as tight as possible while maintaining good walk n talk. But, if the blade doesn't have some elbow room, the knife isn't going to work. It's maddening, I tell ya.

The tolerances are very close between great snap and sleepy blades....wobbly blades and no movement. I tiny bit of side to side play doesn't bother me. I would rather have that than have a blade that is sluggish.

Both the issue of blade play and of blade rub is not a dead horse if you do not have a lot of experience.

When you get a new knife and there is blade play or blade rub.

Could you give advice when they are acceptable or when they should be send back to the manufacture?

 

[KnifeHead]

Both the issue of blade play and of blade rub is not a dead horse if you do not have a lot of experience.

When you get a new knife and there is blade play or blade rub.

Could you give advice when they are acceptable or when they should be send back to the manufacture?

First off...this "smiley" is so dang funny I'm gonna post it again...

Note the smiley's eyes as he is raring back to hammer the horsey. That's some funny schtuff right there

Secondly off, I don't have near the experience with pocket knives as probably the majority of the folks that frequent this forum so you can take what I have to say about the subject as strictly opinion ...that said...

...when folks talk about blade play, I think they need to quantify it in some way because I have seen varying degrees of it in hand made and production knives and I have no way to relate that to the subject of blade play as it is discussed in this or the other threads that exist on the subject. How much side to side blade play is acceptable? Some say "none" and some say "a little bit". How much is "none" and how much is "a little bit"? Oh, and...I almost forgot "wobble". How much is "wobble"?

I maybe think about pocket knives and how they work a bit differently than your basic knife lover since I have built a few. I think of blade play in terms of tenths of thousandths of an inch. You have to have that kind of blade play to make a knife work. That kind of "blade play" can't be seen or felt in side to side movement, but, can only be noticed in the way that the knife works or how some describe as "snappy". What I am saying is "blade play" is needed for a pocket knife to open and close snappy.

From my point of view, knowing every pocket knife that I put together is going to be slightly different, I don't know 100% how the knife will work until that last pin is peined or spun. That's really the point in which I know for sure how much play will be in the blade. At that juncture, I have to decide if the play is acceptable enough in my mind to pass on to a buyer or do I give it away.

I'm of the opinion that a knife isn't a total loss if you can feel a little play. As far as any knife that I would make, I strive for no detectable(play you can't feel in side to side movement) blade play. But, if I put together a knife and can FEEL some slight movement but the knife operates smoothly with good snap, I would rather have some detectable blade play and have a good working knife than have a sluggishly operating blade.

Whether hand made or production, the buyer needs to make the final decision on just how much is acceptable to them.

We could try to quantify acceptable play on a production knife as this; the blade tip can be pushed one way or the other 1/4 of the available space in either direction and it STAYS there. How much do you really like the knife? If you really like it, you might accept a wee bit more..maybe up to 1/3 play. I'd say anything over that would be too much in any knife and I would try to get it fixed or replaced.

Why do I still feel like I am

?

 

[texasflyfisher]

Good thing that horse is dead. Getting whacked in the KHnuts over and over would probably kill it.

I really don't like any side to side blade play though if I really like the knife I may accept a minuscule amount of it.

 

[Doug S]

We could try to quantify acceptable play on a production knife as this; the blade tip can be pushed one way or the other 1/4 of the available space in either direction and it STAYS there. How much do you really like the knife? If you really like it, you might accept a wee bit more..maybe up to 1/3 play. I'd say anything over that would be too much in any knife and I would try to get it fixed or replaced.

I like this description, and I agree that it would be nice to have some guide, other than subjective opinion on the topic. I'll admit I'm pretty confused by the whole topic. For instance, I've bought 6 or so Buck 301-303 knives. I keep reading how Buck usually has "no" blade play/movement. Well, on my examples I can move the blades side to side on all but one of my Buck knives. The blades don't move from side to side on their own, but I can forcible move them from side to side. They do not stay in that position, they flex back. I've always wondered if this is normal, because I've not read a really detailed description of "blade play". The blades just can be moved within the small amount of visible space to the side of the blade tang. From reading the above, I like the mention of the word "STAYS". I can say that none of the Buck's I've mentioned "STAYS" in the position that I can forcibly move them, they just can be "flexed" from side to side. I even have one Victorinox that I can do this with (although, none of my other SAKs have any side to side movement).

 

[yobbos1]

Blade play has always bothered me on new folding knives, no matter the make or model. If that is the case then I will send back the knife for repair or return and have always been compensated with a proper outcome since I deal with only quality brands, production and custom alike.

Over time however, with hard use, one has to expect this to occur and then its tollerable. Personally, several good whacks with a four pond rubber mallet on each side of the bolster or swing pin location while covered with a soft towell, and pretty much any slipjoint will tighten up. .. I have a similar philosophy to raising teenagers these days too


Anthony

LOL! Sunnyd I'm gonna have to remember that one for the kids in a couple of years. Jackknife, again, you make me re-evaluate my position on something...and thank you for that.

 

[kidwholaughs]

At that juncture, I have to decide if the play is acceptable enough in my mind to pass on to a buyer or do I give it away.

Hey Kerry, love the

. Feel free to send me all your rejects that wobble or dance.

Being a perfectionist. I would ask a custom maker to make a knife that has no detectable "play", open or closed. This goes along the lines of nice handmade watches. However, for a working knife. Pivots that are loose are easier to irrigate with oil and clean.

God Bless

 

[yablanowitz]

Kerry, I hope you have better luck than I've had trying to get people to quantify any type of play. Every time I've tried here (not this specific sub-forum, but BF in general) it has lead to responses of an emotional level that I would reserve for someone advocating raping babies. I have concluded that the average knife knut is too emotionally involved with his precious knives to discuss them rationally as the simple machines they are. Most often when you ask "how much play is acceptable" you get a knee-jerk response of "none" from at least half the posters. Never mind that true zero play means zero clearance between parts, which means zero movement.

 

[KnifeHead]

Kerry, I hope you have better luck than I've had trying to get people to quantify any type of play. Every time I've tried here (not this specific sub-forum, but BF in general) it has lead to responses of an emotional level that I would reserve for someone advocating raping babies. I have concluded that the average knife knut is too emotionally involved with his precious knives to discuss them rationally as the simple machines they are. Most often when you ask "how much play is acceptable" you get a knee-jerk response of "none" from at least half the posters. Never mind that true zero play means zero clearance between parts, which means zero movement.

..............I heart you

 

[Bastid]

Kerry, I hope you have better luck than I've had trying to get people to quantify any type of play. Every time I've tried here (not this specific sub-forum, but BF in general) it has lead to responses of an emotional level that I would reserve for someone advocating raping babies. I have concluded that the average knife knut is too emotionally involved with his precious knives to discuss them rationally as the simple machines they are. Most often when you ask "how much play is acceptable" you get a knee-jerk response of "none" from at least half the posters. Never mind that true zero play means zero clearance between parts, which means zero movement.

Not to mention with time the excessive friction will take it's toll and there will be significant blade play.

I own a couple of knives that I use that are over 100 years old, just medium sized pocket knives, but the blades still have excellent action. I am pretty sure if they where made with zero play by now you would be able to flick the little suckers open.

 

[jackknife]

I have concluded that the average knife knut is too emotionally involved with his precious knives to discuss them rationally as the simple machines they are.

That has to be the absolutly truest thing I've read about in a very long time.:thumbup:

 

[neeman]

I never knew a knife was a machine?

 

[Josh K]

Kerry, I hope you have better luck than I've had trying to get people to quantify any type of play. Every time I've tried here (not this specific sub-forum, but BF in general) it has lead to responses of an emotional level that I would reserve for someone advocating raping babies. I have concluded that the average knife knut is too emotionally involved with his precious knives to discuss them rationally as the simple machines they are. Most often when you ask "how much play is acceptable" you get a knee-jerk response of "none" from at least half the posters. Never mind that true zero play means zero clearance between parts, which means zero movement.

Wow. You have a way with words sir. :thumbup:

 

[yablanowitz]

I never knew a knife was a machine?

The simplest machine is an inclined plane. A wedge is a portable inclined plane. A knife blade is a wedge.

A folding knife is a collection of parts fitted together and assembled to allow the parts to move in certain ways. What else would you call it but a machine?

 

[sm2]

jacknife,
The analogy of a Government Model of 1911 is perfect,

I grew up with the Gov't Model of 1911 , and to this day I prefer it to newer offerings.

John Browning designed the 1911 "made right, not tight". It was a tool unto itself and flat worked/works.

One I had, only had about a inch or so of rifling left near the muzzle, it was still combat accurate.

Folks today speak of these Gov't models being "sloppy", I beg to differ. They were not sloppy, instead made right, not tight, and worked in dirt, mud, sand, rain, snow, etc.

I also grew up Case, Hen & Rooster Betram era's, Shrade Walden, and other factory pocket knives, and some custom pocket knives. These too were made right, not tight.
They too lasted decades, as many folks only had one pocket knife, they used for everything.

Both the 1911 and these knives started out with character and with time and use, develop more character.


Then "progress" kicked in, or something.
For some reason the 1911 needed to be made "tighter", then duckbutts, full length guide rods and other things.

Folks were focused on "aspects", and one week is was FLGR, the next was changing recoil springs, the next was duckbutts , the next...

Knives went through the same "progress" and each week a new something was marketed and knives "had to have" whatever this new thing was.

Back when, folks checked out things before they bought, as money was tight, so they tried before they bought, be it guns, or knives.

There was no credit cards, and the only "credit" was a ledger at the grocer, or druggist, or hardware store, and it was not used often, and when it was it was paid off on payday.

Folks made do, saved up, did without or another option was lay-a-way.

Now we have credit cards, and marketing telling folks they gotta have this , this week, and certain aspects one has to have.

Many knives are not made for using, instead collecting.
They have the aspects that are the in thing that week. The blade steels are not for hard use, for decades, and since they are collector items, and will not be used, there is no need to heat treat them proper.

Dye is used , and in a manner unlike yesteryear, where the dye gives the collector the look, but if used as in yesteryear, would bleed out and not hold up.

I have seen too many tight guns not be reliable, and I have seen too many ...how shall we say...tight knives not be reliable either.

Gov't Model as designed still runs, in all sorts of conditions, just as knives made right, not tight still last decades of being used.

It ain't blade play , or wobble, on knives made right , not tight, that is how it is supposed to be, and is called character.

 

[Mick57]

The simplest machine is an inclined plane. A wedge is a portable inclined plane. A knife blade is a wedge.

A folding knife is a collection of parts fitted together and assembled to allow the parts to move in certain ways. What else would you call it but a machine?

A tool.

 

[KnifeHead]

I like this description, and I agree that it would be nice to have some guide, other than subjective opinion on the topic. I'll admit I'm pretty confused by the whole topic. For instance, I've bought 6 or so Buck 301-303 knives. I keep reading how Buck usually has "no" blade play/movement. Well, on my examples I can move the blades side to side on all but one of my Buck knives. The blades don't move from side to side on their own, but I can forcible move them from side to side. They do not stay in that position, they flex back. I've always wondered if this is normal, because I've not read a really detailed description of "blade play". The blades just can be moved within the small amount of visible space to the side of the blade tang. From reading the above, I like the mention of the word "STAYS". I can say that none of the Buck's I've mentioned "STAYS" in the position that I can forcibly move them, they just can be "flexed" from side to side. I even have one Victorinox that I can do this with (although, none of my other SAKs have any side to side movement).

It's good that you pointed out the difference between "flexing" and "play". I think a blade that flexes or bends side to side is acceptable if it is ground thin enough to do so. If a blade is too thick, it won't bend and it won't cut through things very well either.