blade quenching fact or fiction

[SteelSlaver]

Springs are fully hardened then spring tempered. Nobody makes a spring that is half and half or any other ration. The difference between non heat treated tool steels and mild steels? Not much.

The difference between a edge quenched blade of tool steel and a blade made with mild steel that has a piece of quality tool steel properly forge welded to the cutting edge. Not much.

Notice how thin the machetes are? If they were to soft the would stay bent. If they were to hard they would snap. The huge band saw used in lumber mills are fully hardened then tempered. The teeth are then rehardened and tempered to a higher hardness than the "body". They are bend around the drive wheel and idler a countless thousands of times and cut through miles of wood.

This thread is getting carried way beyond the point of anything real. The truth is if you properly make a blade and then edge quench it, somehow properly heat the edge and not the spine and quench, clay harden it or fully harden it and then draw back the spine area you should have a knife that only an idiot would break. If I am stuck in a survival situation I am going to use MY BRAIN and not abuse the only knife I have no mate who made it or how it was made. I have a great survival book by the British SAS and no where does it talk of needing a knife that does more that any of these can do. A superior knowledge and a brain will get you a lot farther with any decent knife than some one who does stupid stuff with the worlds greatest survival knife.

 

[12345678910]

Ed, I have maintained the fact that I respect your motivation to make the best knife you can.

However.....

These last few exchanges have forced me to rethink my opinion about you, sir. I am still a novice when it comes to metallurgy but have enough of an understanding to realize your motives are less than honourable. Your blatent disregard for even the most basic metallurgical FACT is stiffling. I have read more boldfaced lies in this thread than any other.... and I'm starting to think that it is because I never reallly read your previous threads. I have no doubt that your motives lie in selling YOUR KNIVES and Discrediting honest makers in the process. Your "ace in the hole" is most people's general lack of enough metallurgical knowledge to see you for what you are. I will refrain from telling you what I think you are.

I am sorry for doing exactly what we are trying to avoid in Shop Talk. If this thread gets closed, it will be my fault as Ed seems to know how to ride the line of personal attack and insult...... he has had a lifetime of practice.

I'm sorry Stacy.

Rick

I find that the notoriety Ed gets from the magazine article gives him instant creditability to his opinions, while those here and elsewhere who work hard to educate on solid principles are often unrecognised.

It took me years to unlearn the "facts" I got from Blade Magazine & to realize that it's just a pretty picture book.
At best the text is unreliable, or at worst outright fairy-tales on such as "the soul of a knife"
That magazine space could be used to educate and inform, but it's used as a shill for a particular brand of BS & catchphrases such as "catastrophic failure" and endless discussions on "grain growth" to the exclusion of any other metallurgy issue such as proper heating, temp control.

One of the things that made me think twice, is why would a man who endorses and presumably owns a Paragon oven, just torch and eyeball his heat treats - especially when he chooses to use that on a high alloy steel like 52100 that needs precise temp control and soaking.

It made me recognize that the source for his obsession on grain growth probably stems from overheated & broken blades.

 

[Tai Goo]

Ed, I have maintained the fact that I respect your motivation to make the best knife you can.

However.....

These last few exchanges have forced me to rethink my opinion about you, sir. I am still a novice when it comes to metallurgy but have enough of an understanding to realize your motives are less than honourable. Your blatent disregard for even the most basic metallurgical FACT is stiffling. I have read more boldfaced lies in this thread than any other.... and I'm starting to think that it is because I never reallly read your previous threads. I have no doubt that your motives lie in selling YOUR KNIVES and Discrediting honest makers in the process. Your "ace in the hole" is most people's general lack of enough metallurgical knowledge to see you for what you are. I will refrain from telling you what I think you are.

I am sorry for doing exactly what we are trying to avoid in Shop Talk. If this thread gets closed, it will be my fault as Ed seems to know how to ride the line of personal attack and insult...... he has had a lifetime of practice.

I'm sorry Stacy.

Rick

Wow Rick. That's just over the top bud.

I don't think Ed is saying that his findings are "fact", but are just his findings and the best explanations for them he's been able to come up with so far. I'm not sure if those explanations are correct, but from what I've heard his knives will perform exactly how he says they will.

To quote Ed again:

"It would be very easy to get into a great debate on this subject, but I will simply suggest that you do as I did and try various methods, test the knives to destruction and see for your self which works for you and the kind of knives you want to make." Ed

I guess if you aren't willing to do that, then there's no point in arguing about it or putting Ed down. Just to jump in and call Ed a liar (who’s only interest is in selling his knives) based on a limited understanding of what's actually going on with the steel, isn’t very scientific.

 

[Mike Davis]

Ed, I have maintained the fact that I respect your motivation to make the best knife you can.

However.....

These last few exchanges have forced me to rethink my opinion about you, sir. I am still a novice when it comes to metallurgy but have enough of an understanding to realize your motives are less than honourable. Your blatent disregard for even the most basic metallurgical FACT is stiffling. I have read more boldfaced lies in this thread than any other.... and I'm starting to think that it is because I never reallly read your previous threads. I have no doubt that your motives lie in selling YOUR KNIVES and Discrediting honest makers in the process. Your "ace in the hole" is most people's general lack of enough metallurgical knowledge to see you for what you are. I will refrain from telling you what I think you are.

I am sorry for doing exactly what we are trying to avoid in Shop Talk. If this thread gets closed, it will be my fault as Ed seems to know how to ride the line of personal attack and insult...... he has had a lifetime of practice.

I'm sorry Stacy.

Rick

+1 I have to agree with Rick. Testing done in an uncontrolled environment is unreliable at best.

 

[Tai Goo]

I use full quench, edge quench and everything in between…

Heat treating isn’t about what’s correct or incorrect,… better, best etc. It’s just a way to modify, control and adjust the properties of the steel, within it’s limitations,... for what ever purpose you desire.

It’s all good.

 

[Ed Fowler]

Rick: I have made one knife this year, and tested it to destruction - all in the presence of our last student. So much for my sharing what we have learned for the purpose of selling knives.

I report what we have learned, share what we have learned without reserve and invite others to join in testing their methods and blades then if they wish share their results with all who will listen.

Truth is very important to me, I feel it is the most significant effort a man can make, being first of all honest with himself and with others.

In my country calling a man a liar is cause for fast and serious physical debate. Wish you were here!

 

[Tai Goo]

It would be harder for me to believe that Ed is a liar,... than for me to believe the earth is flat and gravity doesn't exist.

 

[JW Knives]

...
In my country calling a man a liar is cause for fast and serious physical debate. Wish you were here!

this literally made me laugh out loud

 

[lazlo]

All steels of the same given shape [regardless of hardness] will flex the exact same amount until they reach their elastic limit.

The only thing that changes how much force it takes to flex ANY steel with any HT is geometry.

Kevin Cashen has a fantastic demo of this: he takes an old-fashioned safety-razor, figure somewhere in the 60 - 65 Hrc, and bends it 180° between his fingers.

At least once a month, someone on one of the machinist forums will ask how much stiffer a hardened alloy steel boring bar will be than a mild steel boring bar. The answer, of course, is not at all.

 

[stabman]

In my country calling a man a liar is cause for fast and serious physical debate. Wish you were here!

What's with so many people wanting to beat each other up on Bladeforums lately?
Too much testosterone in the milk?
Are the planets in some extra stupid alignment?
Seriously though, why are so many people becoming so "violentesque" round this part of the internet?

 

[12345678910]

In my country calling a man a liar is cause for fast and serious physical debate. Wish you were here!

That's funny for a couple of reasons.

1. It's miss direction away from the points raised, because they cannot be refuted.

2. You can only say that because you know it won't come to pass
& if it did it wouldn't work out well for you

 

[Brian Ayres]

I use full quench, edge quench and everything in between…

Heat treating isn’t about what’s correct or incorrect,… better, best etc. It’s just a way to modify, control and adjust the properties of the steel, within it’s limitations,... for what ever purpose you desire.

It’s all good.

Best answer yet. Nicely said Tai!

 

[GTH11]

WOW.........This is going bad fast, liars, physical debates, the canucks placing bets....Gentleman, lets be just that, maybe agree to disagree, Mr. Fowler has his ways, Tai is Tai, Rick used some oak and got published???, we each do our own thing...but this thread needs a quench in some fruit medley kool aid!!!

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

OK, guys, I think this thread has run out of things to add, and the things being added now won't help anyone. What has been posted is enough on the subject for you folks to decide your HT and testing methods.

In fairness to all posters, I will sum up what I read as the main advise to new and old makers.

1) Make your knives the way you like to. There are a variety of ways, and all work in the right circumstances.
2) Test what you make.
3) Change anything that may improve your knives, and keep what works for you.
4) No one is a better judge of your work than you are. If you are happy with it, that is all that matters.
5) Knifemakers are a high spirited group, and like a bunch of stallions in a herd, it doesn't take much to kick up a scruff.


Just so no one thinks that I am not being a fair moderator, I sent Rick a warning note that he was getting near the edge , gave him a virtual slap on the wrist, and told him to not post again on this thread.

Time for all to move along....nothing more to see here.