Blade Show Cutting contest: fact or fiction?

2knife

2knife

Joined
Mar 13, 2002
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There is a dissatisfaction among knifemakers i talked with in regards to the cutting contest, new mgmt., etc. Here are the two things which i came to learn this weekend.

1. Makers no longer feel a connection to this event in the same way it has been in past years. The original idea or "mission" of the event is more spectator oriented. Less-maker driven. Knives can be purchased by contestants, rather than a maker representing his own work. The ABS connection is gone and many knives are stock removal.
2. Skill based has turned into an obstacle course to be completed in the fastest time. While this is exciting it increases the chance for accidents.

The last issue that i know of pertains to the tests themselves. None of the individual events are designed to test a tip. It appears to have become solely a chopping contest, in the same way as you see axe competitions. I made a point to bring this up
after talking to Jerry Fisk. He was right- all the knives were cleaver style. All squared off. As the show announcer was fielding questions i asked why no events were designed to test a knife tip?.. most knives have and need tips for a reason. He had no answer, but said "Good question!", then he looked to another Bladesports official who started to answer- something to the effect the rope test should test would also test the tip since it is part of the blade..(?) .. and something about a "straw" event.. I asked him if he would like to give an explanation to everyone over the microphone. He said No.

it was still very entertaining. I enjoyed the moment of standing next to Dan Farr and
his brother, who i mistaked for his "son"- I think he said "it's all changed".. Which i took as a lament.

I missed seeing Jerry preside over the event. He was always good with the wit and as a Mastersmith could comment on knife design elements as well.
David
 
The old ABS competition had become very much a matter of individual skill at each event, an aspect that has been debated here several times in the past. The reputation boost conferred on the winner was somewhat overblown in terms of the actual performance to be expected from his blades over those of other competitors, and translated for awhile into prices on the winner's blades going up disproportionately against those of the other competitors until the next competition crowned a new winner. Not sure how that's played out over the past few years, because I quit following the competitions once this aspect became obvious to me.

But it is a crowd-pleasing event, and the way it's being staged now may be as good as any in that regard.
 
very good discussion,

as it has become a competition,
the knives will evolve to as much as the rules permit to get a advantage on the competition , form follows function
no need for a tip, and a big advantage to have as much weight at the tip as possible , so it became squired off tip.

and as the competition has kicked in , the skills off the cutter have become more important than the knife , knife still needs to be top quality , but the skills of the cutter make it excel
 
Or in some cases, the skill of the cutter can make up for perceived inadequacies of the knife. My British friend Ian (Longstrider) finished fourth in 2009, his first year and sixth this year using knifes of his own design and construction made from O1 when most of the others are using knives made from M4. IIRC, the one he used in 2009 may have even had a point. ;) But in the contest's current format, it could be argued that it SHOULD be the skill of the cutter that matters as it is no longer restricted just to knifemakers. The contests have been transformed inot a sport with industry sponsorships. it is no longer the fun little hammer-in event, at least at the top levels.
firebolt said:
very good discussion,

as it has become a competition,
the knives will evolve to as much as the rules permit to get a advantage on the competition , form follows function
no need for a tip, and a big advantage to have as much weight at the tip as possible , so it became squired off tip.

and as the competition has kicked in , the skills off the cutter have become more important than the knife , knife still needs to be top quality , but the skills of the cutter make it excel
Click to expand...
 
What I have seen from cutting competition I find disappointing.
To me a knife without a point is a cleaver and not a knife.
I think that tests where the tip is used shoud be added, so whole knives are tested.
It can be on precision and penetrating power.
 
That it isn't what it used to be seems to be a point of general agreement. Whether the change is one for the better is a matter preference and perspective. In it's nascent days under the auspices of the ABS, the cutting competitions were as much about the makers learning about how to make better knives as they were about putting on an entertaining and interest-generating public display. One aspect that I enjoyed from those early events was the variety of knife designs that were brought to compete, with significant variations in blade / handle design and materials even within the 10/15 dimensional constraints. Makers learned what worked, what didn't - and why. With the net result being that they made better big working knives. That result - obviously - worked to the benefit of maker and customer alike.

Did ultimate victory rest more upon the cutting skill of the maker than the knife itself? You bet. Reggie Barker could chop through a 2 by 4 faster with just about any reasonably decent knife than I could with whatever might be the best chopper ever built. But having tried just about ALL of the old cutting tests myself with a series of very different knife designs, I can attest to the fact that design and construction most definitely do matter. A lot. And the competitions were of interest to me in significant part because the knives used by the makers were of design / construction / materials that they sold to the buying public.

With the evolution of the competitions to their current state, there seems to have been the effective implementation of a standardized knife design - a cleaver, as described by some. Because everyone is essentially using the same knife, the focus of the event shifts even more to the skill / technique / athleticism of the cutter. Correspondingly, the role of the competition in illuminating the merits of a given design is further diminished. It's still a visual spectacle, an entertaining demonstration of skill (some of the records set by these guys must truly boggle the mind of anyone who has attempted the tasks) - and an attention-getting event that displays knives in a positive light to the public. Those are all very good things.

But I must confess that for me, interest has diminished in lock step with the reduced significance of the role played by the knife itself.

For big-blade fans who attended Blade this past wekend - how many rubber-handled full-tang custom cleavers did you see for sale on makers' tables?

Roger
 
That sums it up very well, Roger!

There sure used to be a lot more buzz about the comps back in the day.
 
Just add a part to the event where using a sharp pointy tip is needed. I always thought the point to these events was to design a knife that would be an excellent all around performer, optimized to the best ability of the maker. If the focus is on chopping then certainly designs will lean that way, it's only right if it's the best design for the job. Some of the recent pieces remind me alot of a traditional japanese wood cutting knife.
 
yoda4561 said:
Just add a part to the event where using a sharp pointy tip is needed. I always thought the point to these events was to design a knife that would be an excellent all around performer, optimized to the best ability of the maker. If the focus is on chopping then certainly designs will lean that way, it's only right if it's the best design for the job. Some of the recent pieces remind me alot of a traditional japanese wood cutting knife.
Click to expand...

Excellent point. If you want the competition to be more about the knife, then design tasks which foster the development of the kind of knife you like to see. :thumbup:

Might even be appropriate to plan a change in the array of tasks from time-to-time to develop different knife styles to maximum effectiveness. Or you could have different competitions with different tasks for different classes/styles of blades. Since the event is a proven crowd-pleaser, why not expand it to draw more and bigger crowds?

Obviously, we're at a point where the event is primarily a demonstration of skill by the participants, all using the same basic knife with just a few fine tweaks--something like an IROC race. I think it would be fascinating to change up the tasks and see how the knives develop to excel at them.
 
well the return off the point in blade sport knives, is as simple as creating a cutting competition stage for a pointed knife

the point will return very quickly on the knives ;-)

I'm curies why there never was a test like this, could well be , that for the public image any stabbing like test where left a side, because it can have a negative public appearance
just wondering
 
When the ABS was doing the cuttin comps, there was always a test for the pointy end of the knife. Like stabbing a ping pong ball, or something like that.
 
But that was when guys like Jerry Fisk were coming up with crazy new tests for every competition. The current course still has one or twoof his inventions from what I can tell, but bobbing for ping pong balls in a 5 gallon bucket full of water with a machete is not one of them that made it onto the standard course.;)
Don Hanson III said:
When the ABS was doing the cuttin comps, there was always a test for the pointy end of the knife. Like stabbing a ping pong ball, or something like that.
Click to expand...
 
I believe the Bladesports events are ment to show the knife as a tool not a weapon so there is no stabbing in these events.
 
I don't think a useful point is the sole province of an edged weapon. Every hunting knife I have used has one. Every kitchen knife, too - except the bread knife. Every non-cleaver camp knife I have seen has one, too. Come to think of it, the competition cleavers are among the few custom knives I have ever seen without a point - so they impress more as representative of the exception than the rule.

Roger
 
Don Hanson III said:
That sums it up very well, Roger!

There sure used to be a lot more buzz about the comps back in the day.
Click to expand...

Roger hit the nail on the head (or the steel on the straw). I have to agree wholeheartedly.

As Don states, there use to be a buzz around the building when the competetion was about to begin. I actually forgot about it this year until it had passed. It has turned into a different ballgame.

- Joe
 
This is what I have read at the Bladesports website. I can not recall where I read why there are no stabbing stages inthe competition.

"BladeSports International, Inc., is a Texas non-profit corporation formed to promote knife safety, provide workshops and cutting events for its members, and to inform and educate the public with regard to the safe use of a knife as a tool."
 
I still see penetrating and piercing of material as tool like use of a knife.
That is why almost all knives have a point, it is because knife users need a point.

I disagree with the vision that stabbing is only weapon-like knife use.
Many knife fighting techniques actually use slashing and chopping moves.
(Bill Bagwell for example)

IMHO slashing, chopping and stabbing all three can be used in a tool like knife use, just as it can be used in a weapon like use.
It is because that is what knives are. Impliments that, for all of man kinds history, have been used both as weapons and tools.
 
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