Blade Show Cutting contest: fact or fiction?

[erik markman]

I still see penetrating and piercing of material as tool like use of a knife.
That is why almost all knives have a point, it is because knife users need a point.

I disagree with the vision that stabbing is only weapon-like knife use.
Many knife fighting techniques actually use slashing and chopping moves.
(Bill Bagwell for example)

IMHO slashing, chopping and stabbing all three can be used in a tool like knife use, just as it can be used in a weapon like use.
It is because that is what knives are. Impliments that, for all of man kinds history, have been used both as weapons and tools.

Is that why you wanted to compete in our cuttingcompetition with an old german bayonet?

 

[betzner]

With the evolution of the competitions to their current state, there seems to have been the effective implementation of a standardized knife design - a cleaver, as described by some. Because everyone is essentially using the same knife, the focus of the event shifts even more to the skill / technique / athleticism of the cutter. Correspondingly, the role of the competition in illuminating the merits of a given design is further diminished. It's still a visual spectacle, an entertaining demonstration of skill (some of the records set by these guys must truly boggle the mind of anyone who has attempted the tasks) - and an attention-getting event that displays knives in a positive light to the public. Those are all very good things.

But I must confess that for me, interest has diminished in lock step with the reduced significance of the role played by the knife itself.

For big-blade fans who attended Blade this past wekend - how many rubber-handled full-tang custom cleavers did you see for sale on makers' tables?

Roger

Agree for sure.

Lots of knife people have no use for these competitions. Personally, these days I want to be inside, in air conditioning, looking at knives - and could care less about this kind of activity, since it has evolved to a mano vs mano competition, rather than a knife competition.

But it seems to me that as long as it makes sense to have such functions (ie, sufficient interest level), then they'll probably continue to be around - for those who enjoy them, much like a shoot-off. And probably rightfully so.

Bob

 

[Hengelo_77]

Is that why you wanted to compete in our cuttingcompetition with an old german bayonet?

WW1 English aqtually
It was fun to chop some loose hanging rope with it after the competition demo was over. It surprised me how well it did.
But I don't think that is the point of this threath

 

[erik markman]

The Bladesports cuttingcompetitions have taught me (and not only me) a lot about steels, heattreatment, edge geometry, handle shapes and safety for my knives and the knives I make. So it does have a benefit for me as a knifemaker and it is just plain fun!

 

[Jon Brand]

I haven't read all the posts but here is my opinion. I used to be more interested when I thought it was about the knives. The best knife wins. But I observed that its more about the person cutting, then the blade they have.. or so it seems. I think the competition should be a little tougher on knives and not based on doing certain things with a clock.

 

[Lorien]

as interest in this kind of thing grows, it's conceivable that Bladesports will carry on doing what it's doing to drum up interest, while at the same time the less formal more knife centric cutting events could gain traction again.
No doubt about it, competition cutting is a growing 'sport', and I can't see how this can be a bad thing for the cutlery biz. Good to hold on to the ole skool as well though, imo.

 

[firebolt]

make it a compition and the rules are going to be streched as far as they go.
people are competitive,

no test for a pointed knive,
leaves the door open for tip heavy blades ( squired off ) , this wil help chopping a lot

 

[Toni Oostendorp]

Changes are inevitable and I think the same goes for BladeSports. When you look at other sports you see the same development. Watching the Tour the France, all the bikes look the same to me. In the beginning of cycle racing it was a different story. bikes looked very different, materials, design, all had to go through this development cycle to become to the best bike fitting the competition criteria. Although all bikes look the same there are many differences, but they are in the details, and only the observant eye sees them. I think BladeSports has gone through a very similar cycle, at first you see the biggest developments in form and very quickly (when the rules get better defined) the form is pretty much set. Because what works...works. The changes are in the details now. Angle of the handle, grind, finish, steel type, hardening etc. Things that are not very easy to see but are surely there. BladeSports has become a real sport and I think that the people who liked the " old days" are very fortunate to have seen this sport evolve.

I do see the appeal of the competition where testing a blade or blade design is more interesting to watch, like was more the case in the beginning of the competitions. I think this still happens but within the knifemaking community. Here we often test different knives in the field or during a training day of BladeSports. So it is not very visible for the knife loving public. Maybe this could become a different event, something in the line of a " " "performance event". You set a number of tasks and try to complete these tasks as efficient as possible with your own design. We have been thinking about this kind of events for the Dutch Knife Exhibition. It is very good for education and has a good "fun" factor.

 

[Nebulae]

What I dont like is that success in a cutting competition depends almost entirely on cutting skill, and not knife quality, especially if the cutter bought the knife, or if HT was farmed out it. Problem is natural selection will produce a pool of similar, almost identical knives. perhaps the rules should require the cutter to make the knife.

 

[JParanee]

I just miss Jerry

 

[Hengelo_77]

I think it is a good thing that by compeating with one and other the overall quality of knives made goes up.
Many techniques or materials developed for high level competitions in all different kinds of sports have fount there way to the 'every day user'
That is why I feel it will be a good thing to have exercises requiring a good point so the makers can evolve good points and good workable trade offs between a chopping blade and a blade with an effective point.

 

[tsdevanna]

We all miss Jerry and I for one would prefer he continue to MC this event - I think Jerry has decided to step aside. We would also like the ABS people to compete but for reasons I do not understand - they have stepped aside as well. I know the knife makers put alot of time and effort into making their competiton knives from optimum heat treatment to proper design with SAFETY being the top priority. Quite a few stock removal grades have been tested and makers continue to test new grades as well as new designs. I agree that pointed knives and cutting tests to test tip design should be considered and we will give this deserved attention. Any constructive criticisms that you have about these events are welcomed because we do want to improve and continue to grow this sport. The best part is we are a non profit organization and any monies that we accumulate - we donate to worthwhile organizations such as AKTI, Knife Rights, St. Judes Hospital, Make a Wish, and more. I think we have donated close to $5000 to date. All of you are welcomed to join our organization and take part in these events and that may be one way to better understand the competitons, how these knives have evolved and understand the advantages and disadvantages of forged steels and stock removal steels. Thanks for your interest and comments and we look forward to any of you who wish to join our organization. All the best and please come back Jerry !
T.Scott Devanna

 

[Jose Diaz]

1. Makers no longer feel a connection to this event in the same way it has been in past years. The original idea or "mission" of the event is more spectator oriented. Less-maker driven. Knives can be purchased by contestants, rather than a maker representing his own work. The ABS connection is gone and many knives are stock removal.

98% of the members of BladeSports are makers. So I'm not sure what disconnect you are speaking of. Maybe that some of the original contestants are feeling disconnected. The history of cutting competitions are rich, and as a member of BladeSports and an active participant, and a Maker of knives, I do the best I can to honor that history and tradition.

I'm not sure what the original intent of the cutting competition was, as I have only been participating in them for the past 5 years, but I can say that anyone interested in participating has that opportunity, including those who feel that disconnect. Participation is the only way to affect the sport.

I agree that the ABS's lack of participation is a shame. But BladeSports has always welcomed the ABS to attend and participate. As a mater of fact, BladeSports as an organization is a member of the ABS.

I invite all member of the ABS to participate in BladeSports to help mold the organization and to help us advance the competition as well as the competition knife, thereby potentially advancing all cutting tools.

I agree that most of the knives are made by the stock removal process, but there have many times and will continue to be forged knives at these competitions. There is no rule against the use of forged knives, and anyone wanting to use a forged piece at a BladeSports competition is welcome to do so as long as it conforms to the safety requirements and the cutter has been through the safety training.

2. Skill based has turned into an obstacle course to be completed in the fastest time. While this is exciting it increases the chance for accidents.

As the cutting competition is held in public, as it was in the past, I can only derive that this is and always was a spectator sport. BladeSports has taken this activity and regulated it a bit to make it as safe as possible, and I am proud to say that no member of BladeSports has yet been injured at any event. Creating a timed event has not adversely affected the safety, as there are strict rules about course speed of movement. As a mater of fact there are many rules, including the one where everyone participating in a BladeSports event must attend a safety training.

Believe me, skill in creating a knife and wielding it safely and accurately is weighed as much as the time it takes to complete the course. Score is calculated by adding 100 to the time in seconds, then subtracting the points earned at the event. The lowest score wins. A fast time does give an advantage, but very often, the fastest time does not dictate the winner. The winner has always been the individual who cuts the best.

The last issue that i know of pertains to the tests themselves. None of the individual events are designed to test a tip. It appears to have become solely a chopping contest, in the same way as you see axe competitions. I made a point to bring this up after talking to Jerry Fisk. He was right- all the knives were cleaver style. All squared off. As the show announcer was fielding questions i asked why no events were designed to test a knife tip?.. most knives have and need tips for a reason. He had no answer, but said "Good question!", then he looked to another Bladesports official who started to answer- something to the effect the rope test should test would also test the tip since it is part of the blade..(?) .. and something about a "straw" event.. I asked him if he would like to give an explanation to everyone over the microphone. He said No.

The reason BladeSports has veered away from stabbing events, is due to the public perception of stabbing connotes the action as the use of the knife as a weapon. I agree that the use of a tip in a knife is not always for weapons use but; again, as this is a public event, BladeSport's mission is to promote the safe use as knife as a tool. This kind of makes sense to me, as the knives used in competitions, past and present have always been referred to as "choppers". It's therefore strange to me that individuals think find it out of place to see chopping events at cutting competitions.

Many of the knives therefore have taken on the likeness of knives traditionally used in these types of activities. The Kuhkri, the Golock, the Machete, the Parang, the Enep and more have influenced the present cutting competition knife. Makers of competition knives have not invented anything new. Knives used for chopping don't traditionally have tips. But note this: there is no rule against having a tip on a competition knife. So anyone wanting to participate using a knife with a tip may happily do so.

it was still very entertaining. I enjoyed the moment of standing next to Dan Farr and his brother, who i mistaked for his "son"- I think he said "it's all changed".. Which i took as a lament.

Of course it has all changed. Sports do that as they grow. I'm sure, basketball players from the 1950's look at the sport today and are astonished how things have changed. Race car drivers from the prohibition days would look at stock car racing and see the sense of the sport but would look with gaping mouths at the cars driven today. And the football players of Leather helmeted days would look at today's grid iron with astonishment at the athletes and modern customized helmets used today.

Sports evolve, and I believe that BladeSports has made a positive impact on safety and accessibility of the sport.

An interesting impact is that those who can still make knives but not be physically capable to participate can see their knives win World Championships. Warren Osborn was just as much a winner as Gary Bond was. That team effort made that win possible. I myself, who didn't have a vary good showing had a knife that took 4th place in the competition in the hands of my sponsored cutter and best friend, Lars Rosenblad. So even though I took 10th in the event, I also took 4th.

One way Dan Farr or any other maker can influence how the sport changes is by participating in it. I challenge everyone who would like to positively influence this sport to participate.

I would like to challange you, David, to help us make this sport better for the future.

I missed seeing Jerry preside over the event. He was always good with the wit and as a Mastersmith could comment on knife design elements as well.

David

We all miss Mr. Fisk. His participation was a light for all of us to follow when it come to fun, education, and the making of a great knife. I'd love to see more ABS members participate, and help us grow this into a real and recognizable sport. One that maybe our children can not only watch at future Blade Shows, but maybe as a sport at the Olympics, or on sunday after the football game on the television. Maybe this sport will help non-knife people to see that knife is a real and usable tool, and no threat to our society.

On a side note: I am no longer the executive director of BladeSports. This responsibility has been passed to Donavon Phillips. I also am not on the board of BladeSports, and am just a humble member, instructor, maker and active participant of this sport; which by the way, have a passion and respect for.

 

[2knife]

Mr. Diaz,
Thank you, I very much appreciate you taking the time to address each of the issues i brought up. Your answers are well stated and thorough.

I do find the reason the "tip" is excluded from the competition as unfortunate. The only reason i bring this up is - to me- if you eliminate the tip, you have 1/2 (or 3/4) of a knife. I realize this is just me talking, but IF part of the competition is to prove knife function, it seems to me you would want to encompass every aspect of the blade- including the tip. But, if it is a spectator oriented chopping contest, i can see how this may not be necessary, or important. Still, the whole reason they are watching is to see a knife- knives have tips, generally.

The reason BladeSports has veered away from stabbing events, is due to the public perception of stabbing connotes the action as the use of the knife as a weapon. I agree that the use of a tip in a knife is not always for weapons use but; again, as this is a public event, BladeSport's mission is to promote the safe use as knife as a tool. This kind of makes sense to me, as the knives used in competitions, past and present have always been referred to as "choppers". It's therefore strange to me that individuals think find it out of place to see chopping events at cutting competitions.

Many of the knives therefore have taken on the likeness of knives traditionally used in these types of activities. The Kuhkri, the Golock, the Machete, the Parang, the Enep and more have influenced the present cutting competition knife. Makers of competition knives have not invented anything new. Knives used for chopping don't traditionally have tips. But note this: there is no rule against having a tip on a competition knife. So anyone wanting to participate using a knife with a tip may happily do so.

Why adhere to the 10" blade rule?
Thanks to all, very good discussion points, throughout.
David

 

[HTMD]

In 2005 this was one way you could test both the integrity of your tip and the measure of your skill. Dickie Robinson had it down:

Reggie Barker not so much:

All tips were inspected afterwards and any damage meant disqualification. Leaving the balloon intact (not to mention the glass!) earned more points. Nice!

I agree that things change and it is what it is now for reasons that are hard to ignore. Among the differences between then and now I would point (pun intended) to this: Makers/competitors always learn from participating, but these days I don't think the crowd learns much.

The ABS reverted to 'cutting demonstrations' that were educational, in keeping with their educational mission, organizational tax status and liability limits. Some ABS smiths wanted to compete for money and prizes - they moved on to the new incarnation of the contests since there was no way for the ABS to legally move in that direction. This new direction eventually allowed non-makers to compete with purchased knives - a plus for many. Again, the ABS was legally prohibited from going there.

During the ABS years of putting on the big event in Atlanta Jerry Fisk proved adept at getting the crowd's attention and teaching them all about knives and what was going on vis a vis the various functions of a knife. But he has always been quick to explain that part of what made it all funny and magical back then was that he knew the contestants so well - and his keying off their personalities and idiosyncrasies was a huge crowd pleaser. That changed when the pool of contestants opened up.

Things kind of escalated though, and guys like me insisted on taking excessive risks to get great shots:

Some of the pictures I published of those events back in the day were scary. For example, it's pretty obvious what might've happened to me had Reggie lost control of his knife here (safety straps are not fool proof):

And some of my photoshop'd images didn't help to calm the lawyers or the ABS Board members either:

The changes that came about were inevitable, even without all the provocative photography.

I think the competitions will always draw a crowd at BLADE Show for no other reason than there's good action to be enjoyed that involves knives. Those who carried the torch after the ABS had to bow out have worked hard to keep the action going:

I do hope they continue and as such, they will continue to morph. People will vote with their attendance/participation and one day nobody will be around who even remembers the 'good ol' days' referenced here. This is the nature of all things. Let it flow. :thumbup:

 

[Toxie]

It's therefore strange to me that individuals think find it out of place to see chopping events at cutting competitions.

I suppose that's because they're cutting competitions, NOT chopping competitions.

But note this: there is no rule against having a tip on a competition knife. So anyone wanting to participate using a knife with a tip may happily do so.

Even still - people game the system as allowed, and it's a shame to see a KNIFE centric event dominated by cleavers.

Race car drivers from the prohibition days would look at stock car racing and see the sense of the sport but would look with gaping mouths at the cars driven today.

What a perfect example, unfortunately not a positive one. Stock car racing USED to be about manufacturer innovation and wa sa major win for the consumer. Now it's ALL about the driver, with car differences minimized to the best of their ability and innovation stilted and stalled for the largest part (doesn't "stock car" racing use 70's technology for the largest part?) and the consumer is the loser.
Mark my words, continue down the path you're on and in 10 or 15 years with the sport still growing you'll have a standardized knife required for competition and it'll be a cult of personality rather then a hotbed of innovation. And that's a darn shame. If you wonder why the ABS and company doesn't come - It could be that the stock car racers of yore wouldn't be quite as impressed with modern stock car racing as you think.

 

[Jon Brand]

.......

I do hope they continue and as such, they will continue to morph. People will vote with their attendance/participation and one day nobody will be around who even remembers the 'good ol' days' referenced here. This is the nature of all things. Let it flow. :thumbup:

I'm happy to have been around for the good ol' days, as young as I am in the collector world. I remember these competitions being more fun back then. Speaking of good ol' days, the NY show was crazy in 97. But i was a 14 or so, so it could have just been me..i was probably slinging my first makers knife - A Crawford combat folder.

Sorry to derail. Couldn't resist.

 

[RogerP]

One way Dan Farr or any other maker can influence how the sport changes is by participating in it. I challenge everyone who would like to positively influence this sport to participate.

Jose, Idon't see where Dan Farr has said anything at all in this thread. I do see where David has shared his interpretation of what Dan's brother is reported to have said.

Buddy - good post and a great collection of photos from back in the day.

Roger

 

[SharpByCoop]

Jose, thanks for your lengthy clarification on your impressions. I find them right on, and what I had inclined to think, despite my enjoyment of the 'earlier days' of ABS cutting contests. (I only attended one in 2002, and a BS event in 2007)

Evolution is inevitable as is the specialization of tools. The ABS created a monster, and in appropriate response has backed away as it has taken on a different direction.

Before and during Bladesport's reign, I found it compelling that *I* might be able to compete, with a purchased knife. That's entirely possible now (and entirely a moot point as I have a right shoulder problem that would keep me in the bottom of the pack).

This thread has a LOT of good point/counterpoint dialog. There may be other directions/contests that may be discovered from this.

Coop

 

[Don Hanson III]

I just miss Jerry

Jerry Was a HUGE Entertainment Factor!!!

Buddy, thanks for those photos!!!