Blade steel vs cost

I would make one knife and test the material to see how it works, etc. Then if you find that you are comfortable with the material you could offer it as an option just as others have suggested. Simple solution and it offers you an excuse to try the steel.;)
 
Can't see any reason to make knives from every steel that comes along myself. Why not locate one that does the job and stick with it?

I get requests regulary for the latest and hottest steel written up in one magazine or another and have refused simply because the expense of purchasing a minimum sized piece and shipping to my shop has usually pushed the cost of the knife right out of the ballpark. It is only recently that I have added another steel to my line of 440C knives and I have gone right to the top of the line with Stellite 6K, no use messing around with something in between.

By limiting yourself to one or two blade materials you can make larger purchases and save significantly on shipping costs and cutting losses as well as being able to hold a wider range of material sizes and thicknesses in inventory for the same total dollar value.
 
I regularly use a tool steel that is not avaliable in knife making sizes. I have to slice slabs off of large die stock bars. Customers are told of this option and the price difference up frount. So the steel cost for the knife goes from $10.00 to $30.00 big deal. I do not triple the selling price of the knife though. I just add about $50.00 to the knife price to cover steel cost and extra belts because it does grind a little harder. No one has complained yet when it is explained to them.
 
I can't decide who you're making it tougher on R.W. Us or yourself.

There've been lots of good comments in this thread. But what I'm seeing is a basic lack of information causing confusion about an issue that you thought enough to post here. What are the steels you're talking about? You're obviously directing your question to knifemakers. Unless I missed that. Why tie our hands behind our back? I think honest, up front information will bring you honest, up front answers.

Ed made some good points as far as I'm concerned. My question for you is what is your personal goal with this decision? Do you feel that using a 'special' steel will do your knifemaking business some good? Then go for it. The financial considerations are pure business. Does it make good sense to spend so much more on a new 'designer' steel when what you're using now is widely accepted and a great performer? Not to me, but that's just my opinion. I doubt that I'll ever learn all there is to know about my favorite steel. (email me for what that partucular steel is) :)

If we all went with all the latest steels and tried to keep up with the joneses I don't think we'd get very far. Too much diversity will cause a loss in productivity and therefore a loss of income and stability. When is a tradeoff like that worth the time, expense and effort? That's up to you of course. Good luck on your choices. But most of all have fun and learn something.
 
In a nutshell, I try everything new that comes along. If I am not trying all the new materials I feel I am going stagnent and not trying to improve my knives and not doing my customers any favors. I would rather lead than follow.

If an old favorite steel cost $7 to make a blade from and a new steel comes along and cost $30 to make a blade from and I get 10% increase in all areas of performance you bet I am going to use it if my customers want it! That5 is a small difference in the overall price of the knife to pay for better performance!
 
I suppose the question could be directed at makers as well as consumers. Im sure alot of folks are thinking (but few are saying) that its kind of silly to run in here with the "should I use this super secret steel?? Im not gonna tell you what it is though." C'mon, enough with the "email me if you really wanna know". I think this forum has had more than its fair share of "top secret heat treat" or "I know of a wonder steel, and I aint gonna tell" and various other "secrets". If you wanna ask on a public forum, the be specific, otherwise decide for yourself.

I have seen so many of the makers here that figure out a neat trick or method of making a knife, the first thing they do is come here to share the information in return for all they have learned here. Those who use info here, but hesitate to share dont seem to last all that long.
 
I posted this question in this forum becuase I wanted the input of the "average" knife nut. If I was looking only for input from other makers I would have posted it in the shop forum.

You guys are reading alot more into the question then is needed. The question is simple.

Is a 10% increase in performance worth an 800% increase in the cost of the steel?

For my personal use knives I feel that it is. But is the average consumer willing to absord the added cost?

Steel names are not needed to answer such a simple question. Listing names would just cause answers based on percieved improvement of performance and would not give a true answer. It is like asking what is better ATS-34 or 154CM. You would have people on both sides argueing points, when the truth is that they are the same.

Jeez Richard just answer the silly question as honestly as you can. Seems like everyone is so willing to start flame wars. No wonder more makers don't ask for consumer input! And as far as to the statement of not giving back to the forums or knifemaking in general, you know not to whom you speak.
 
Is a 10% increase in performance worth an 800% increase in the cost of the steel?
Click to expand...

Am I to assume that this new magic steel is 10% better that it's predecessor... in all respects ?

It holds an edge 10% better! It stays sharp 10% longer! The edge is 10% less likely to roll during chopping! It is 10% more resistant to rust and staining! And It is 10% easier to work (that alone should save in the final cost of the knife...):) This seems like a tall order for one new magic steel....

All said, if the knife was a $200 fixed blade with a $10 steel blade blank, would I be paying $270 (less the 10% ease of working fee) for the use of this new steel? If all else is true, I would consider it....

Michael
 
OK, not straight across the board. It holds an edge longer, resists rust and staining better, resists rolling an edge better.

Cons - harder to work, harder to heat treat, some reports have stated that in heavy chopping the edge is more likely to "disform". And it is harder to sharpen. Diamond stones are a must.
 
I'll have to agree with the knifemakers who have posted here: Without a full set of specs and limitations, it is hard for us knife buyers to know if we are really buying 10% more quality or 10% more hype!!! (I like the Talonite blades I have from MR.s Blackwood and Mayo: I live on the ocean and enjoy Talonite's rust-less-ness:).)

So what is this magic steel?? And how much extra does it cost to grind/finish? We are now talking about an increase in material costs AND time/labor!!!

Let us know,

Michael
 
OK, I'll spill...I was talking about ZDP-189 and a sanmai ZDP and ATS-34. Another one was (I think) Cowry 34 (prolly got the number wrong there)
 
Most knifemakers...

Are mavericks and can never be satisfied with ordinary knives, 10% improvment is always worth doing, and reason enough to try anything.

Bust our tails to put our name on the best possible knives we can create, always pushing the envelope, so more customers will want our knives.

Usually make a number of knives every year that have no purpose beyond advancing our skills and understanding of the craft and science we have chosen to pusue.

Aren't in this for the money, but those who make the most money in knifemaking are those who do push the envelope at every chance and make knives that are superior to others. Even 1% improvement is worth doing, because with enough of those 1% solutions we might make a knife that is 100% better.

Consider this:

Talonite costs about 800% more than the equivalent amount of steel. Titanium is about 800% tougher to work with than steel. The knife I carry is made of Titanium and Talonite and was created by an old surfer dude in Hawaii, who's never been motivated by money in his entire life. So why bother?

It's all about attitude!
 
Mr Clark,

The way I see it your question cannot be answered exactly as asked because the increase in the price of the knife will not be a linear function of the cost of the steel.

My GUESS is that incorporating a steel that costs $80 a foot and is harder to work than the $10 a foot steel that you currently use in your $200 Knife will actually increase the cost of the knife by $100 to $150.

Will I pay 50% more for a knife using a steel that provides a 10% increase in performance. It is very possible.
 
SDouglas,
Thanks for such a good answer. I guess that I really had not thought about it that way. I had put the numbers down but had not thought about it in that type of a number function. So I guess that (to put in a simple statement) the larger the knife, the greater the increase in the cost of materials but the the lower the percentage increase in the overall cost of the finished knife.

Or, the greater the value of the knife to start with the less the increase in overall cost.

So maybe this steel is best left to high end pieces or to folders. Seeing as folders have a higher labor cost but a lower materials cost.
After all what is an extra $20-$30 dollars added to the overall cost of a high end folder.
 
R.W.,
One other point is possibly worth your consideration. Often times users get it in their minds that certain steels are better suited to certain types of tasks; i.e. steel #1 excels in large choppers, whereas steel #2 is great for EDC folders.

Certainly a skilled maker such as yourself isn't going to build a knife that he doesn't believe will perform at a high level for an indefinite period of time. But before we out-and-out dismiss all these aforementioned people as steel snobs, let's just accept the fact that some folks genuinely believe that ATS-34, for example, is not the right steel for a large bowie. Is that a fair statement to make? Recent history in this forum would indicate probably not. But to some extent, whether or not these generalizations hold any weight in the real world is immaterial. It's the prospective customer that's voting with his wallet based upon what he thinks is an appropriate type of steel for that blade. Thus it's possible that you could run into the situation where a customer will pass on a particular blade, regardless of the quality of the blade, or the bargain it may represent, and pay significantly more for a similar blade made from a steel which he finds (at least) minimally suitable for the intended tasks at hand. Whether or not the real difference in performance is only 10% probably won't matter a lick to him. Thus, by not offering that steel as an option to this individual (regardless of how poorly informed they may or may not be) you may risk losing a sale. I imagine many makers would say that this isn't a problem because they have enough orders coming in anyway. But it's at least something worth considering.
 
I just purchased a small fixed blade using 420V courtesy of Scott Cook. The maker's price for the standard BG-42 blade was $185. The price for the 420V version is $245. This is attributed to higher steel costs, increased grinding and finishing time and increased heat treating costs as well. This amounts to a 33% increase in costs passed on to the consumer who requests this premium steel. On a $200-$300 dollar knife this is acceptable to me as I will absorb the added cost to gain a small performance edge. It also matters to me if I am going to use the blade or just look at it. If it is a user I will pay the premium required to get all the performance I can. For a shelf sitter, no! I wouldn't really be to proud of throwing my money away just so I could tell someone that this is a high performance knife. I would rather either show them or let them find out for themselves. I can't tell the difference between steels just by looking at them anyway :rolleyes:
 
There are some things that do not have a price. Comfort, happiness, etc. At one time I bought an expensive down coat. I thought it was expensive at the time but after 18 years, the price per year went down and it did keep me extremely comfortable a lot of times.

If you know how to get 10% more out of it now, just think what you might be able to do with it in another 10 years. I think that for some one that is going to buy a hand made knife, they want more quality and a 35% to 50% increase in the cost of a knife would be worth it to them. I think that most will pay what it is worth in their opinion. Since you have asked about getting it, I asume that you are not familiar with the steel and would probably employ a professional heat treating service. Do you add this to the cost in addition to the already increased cost of the steel. If you do the heat treat, is it a general heat treat for that type of steel or is it for that batch of steel? I have been working on one batch of steel for 4 years and I just about have it, maybe :).

I would say, buy a foot, use it, and if you can't get your money back out of it in the increased cost of the knife, forget it and stick with what you can make money at.
 
This spring I bought a knife by a well known maker that cost seven times as much as the current production collaboration. Am I sorry..? No. The quality of the work, materials and sheath made it worth the cost and the size and shape were exactly what I was looking for.

The question of two knives from the same maker with different steels is more difficult...

If I wanted to try a new steel I might pay $350 for a knife normally priced at $300 (far too few in this range!) and I'd probably bite on a knife that was priced at $525 that usually was offered for $450....it gets easier as the price goes up.

I would only accept the increases if I was dissatisfied with the makers usual choices of steels, or was dying to try something new. I am talking about folders...I can't think of a fixed blade that I would pay $300 for. :)

Price vs. performance is always a good question R.W.!


Steve-O
 
Originally posted by blademan 13
I just purchased a small fixed blade using 420V courtesy of Scott Cook. The maker's price for the standard BG-42 blade was $185. The price for the 420V version is $245. This is attributed to higher steel costs, increased grinding and finishing time and increased heat treating costs as well. This amounts to a 33% increase in costs passed on to the consumer who requests this premium steel. On a $200-$300 dollar knife this is acceptable to me as I will absorb the added cost to gain a small performance edge. It also matters to me if I am going to use the blade or just look at it. If it is a user I will pay the premium required to get all the performance I can.
Click to expand...

My sentiments exactly. And I just did the same thing... a Scott Cook Owyhee Hunter in 420V, heat treated by Paul Bos. Would I buy another one like it? Yep. Intend to put my money where my mouth is also... soon. Small version this time, ironwood, 420V.

Also, I wonder if the "edge" is only 10%? Phil Wilson's work suggests otherwise, from what I recall.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top