Blade Steels

whitty

whitty

Dealer / Materials Provider
Joined
Aug 25, 2005
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I don't start new threads often and certainly do not like rocking the boat, at the same time, I feel I need to ask this question. Before you can ask it, yes I did a search for this topic. So my questions is this:

Why are so many people caught up in certain blade steels?

I will not use specific examples but will say that I have read comments over and over again about how certain steels should not draw a high price. That if a knife maker uses a steel that is typically used on $40-$80 knives then they should not be able to demand a $150-$250 price for their knife.

It seems no one takes in to consideration the heat treat of the steel or the other components of the knife. They just write it off immediately as overpriced and not worth it. At the same time they are happy to pay $250+ for a knife that has a supposed super steel.

I have owned them all and have seen the supposed super steels dull quickly and not sharpen easily. I have also seen the cheap steels thrive in real use conditions. I have to wonder are people speaking from experience or are they just going off the hype of high end steel? I also wonder if a high end top of the line maker came out with an awesome design but in a cheaper steel, would it sell?

Don't get me wrong I am a big fan of all knives but feel certain assumptions get made and everyone just assumes they will always be true. Would love to know what you guys think? Sorry for the rant and all the questions!

Whitty
 
I guess low(er) alloy steels are supposed to have simpler HT protocols and are easier to work and which translates to less wear on equipment and abrasives. That's just one aspect of it, I guess.
 
I personally do not like super steels. Most of them are just too hard to sharpen. S35VN or ELMAX are as close I like to get to super steels as I can sharpen them reasonably well. That being said, any knife I buy I expect it to be properly heat treated. Kershaw and Spyderco seem to be able to do that with their most commonly used steels on their most inexpensive knives, and I consider those types of steel to be good.
 
I am not sure why some people are doing what you say they might be doing or not.

Personally I have tested and used them all too over the decades and have come to the conclusion that the steel and the knife have to match the task at hand.

Now what that really means is the following:

  1. The knife has to be designed for the task at hand.
  2. The knife has to have the correct edge and blade geometry for the task at hand.
  3. The knife has to have the correct edge geometry and edge finish for the task at hand.
  4. The steel has to be selected correctly for the task at hand.
  5. The steel has to be heat treated and tempered correctly to fit the above.
  6. The person has to decide what level of performance they need or want as that will effect all of the above as in level of performance.

The knife will only perform as well as the 1st 5 things on the list will allow it to.

The choice has to be made on how well they want the knife to perform taking into count the 1st 5 things on the list.

Notice I didn't add cost into it because cost alone won't make any knife perform, it's the 1st 5 things on the list that will make the knife perform with the 6th thing being the level of performance the knife needs to have.

Now the level of performance means the person has a choice on what level of performance they want or need, and then have have to live with that choice, or they don't and sell it...


Well, steels.....

They are all good, just different and they all have their strong and weak points so one has to compromise somewhat depending on the above and the choices that have been made for various reasons.
 
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It's about perception, or perceived ability. I also feel like it's a status symbol to some. I am guilty of it. As an example: we probably don't "need a Porsche that will do 180 mph, but if we have the money, and enough desire, it's there. How many guys do you see with lifted, tricked out diesel four wheel drive trucks that never tow, or even go off road? I think a certain amount of it is marketing. A certain amount is wanting to have what we feel is the "best", or "latest and greatest".
 
whitty said:
I don't start new threads often and certainly do not like rocking the boat, at the same time, I feel I need to ask this question. Before you can ask it, yes I did a search for this topic. So my questions is this:

Why are so many people caught up in certain blade steels?
Click to expand...

Don't know, need specific examples of steels and intended usage.

whitty said:
I will not use specific examples but will say that I have read comments over and over again about how certain steels should not draw a high price. That if a knife maker uses a steel that is typically used on $40-$80 knives then they should not be able to demand a $150-$250 price for their knife.
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Don't know again it depends on the knife and actual usage or intended usage....

whitty said:
It seems no one takes in to consideration the heat treat of the steel or the other components of the knife. They just write it off immediately as overpriced and not worth it. At the same time they are happy to pay $250+ for a knife that has a supposed super steel.
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Sure they do... Well some do...... But they take everything into count, design, steel, HT, tempering etc......

whitty said:
I have owned them all and have seen the supposed super steels dull quickly and not sharpen easily. I have also seen the cheap steels thrive in real use conditions. I have to wonder are people speaking from experience or are they just going off the hype of high end steel?
Click to expand...

Depends on the actual knives and what they are being compared too..... Options on performance......

whitty said:
I also wonder if a high end top of the line maker came out with an awesome design but in a cheaper steel, would it sell?
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Depends on what customer base they are shooting for in the end...... And what performance level those people want.....

Take the knife using X steel with that awesome design......

But take same knife using Y steel with the exact same design and it will be different.


whitty said:
Don't get me wrong I am a big fan of all knives but feel certain assumptions get made and everyone just assumes they will always be true. Would love to know what you guys think? Sorry for the rant and all the questions!

Whitty
Click to expand...

I doubt most people assume anything blindly.....
 
I enjoy the latest and 'greatest' steel like a lot of folks, but to be perfectly honest, I don't care what type of steel it is as long as it works for me. I love the idea of super steels, and they do tingle my loin, but I've had 'crap' steels perform very well for me and 'supers' the opposite. Is the magic in the ht?
 
I am always interested in trying out new Steel. Elmax, ZDP189, S35V, Super Blue, CTS XHP, S3V, CTS 204P........I have purchased knives in these steels, and more.

I still buy knives made with steels I have used and enjoyed for years, such as D2, A2, O1, S30V, 1095, 51200, 1084.

Most of them work fine. I use a set of water stones, and my trusty EdgePro to sharpen. Nothing yet has stumped me. :cool:
 
HWF said:
I enjoy the latest and 'greatest' steel like a lot of folks, but to be perfectly honest, I don't care what type of steel it is as long as it works for me. I love the idea of super steels, and they do tingle my loin, but I've had 'crap' steels perform very well for me and 'supers' the opposite. Is the magic in the ht?
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All things being equal yes, the HT and tempering process does matter.

It's not magic though, it's either done correctly or it's not for the said knife and steel.

Sharpening and edge finish is VERY important, it has to be matched to the task.
 
I do occasionally hear things like that, but you also see people dropping mortgage-payment level cash on blades made of simple, low-alloy steels like 1095 or 52100. I don't really think either group is wrong, unless you're one of the rare few that either make a living with a knife or otherwise depend on it to survive, you should buy what you like. If pure edge holding and cutting performance are what you look for, that's great, but there's nothing wrong with enjoying design, artistry or any other aspect of cutlery.
 
I agree with much of what is said, and would like to add that price comparisons come into effect with me as well. Often the blade steel type is mismatched to handle materials within a price grouping. I would choose micarta and 154CM over 420J2 and FRN every day in comparable knives. For this reason I rarely look at Buck knives- I feel the material:price value isn't there in most offerings I've seen. The whole knife is more important, as I prefer the CRKT Bwana over the Spyderco Ocelot- even though the Ocelot is made of better materials! However, that does not mean I would pay the same price for both- the CRKT does not have the quality of materials to allow for the price. When I make knives for people I change price for difficulty and materials, I expect the same from manufacturers. I won't pay for lower level materials at a name brand price just to pay for the name, but similarly I don't turn my nose up at lower priced knives due to "inferior" materials. If the overall value is there and I like the design it becomes mine- BM Contego or CRKT stockman, both opposite ends of the materials spectrum, but both happy new additions to my hoard!
 
Lets bring this into context. What, I suspect, brought this thread into being is a discussion regarding the Southern Grind knives. Typically, they come with 14c28n steel on a nicely finished, well made knife.

Some of us have expressed our opinion on that thread. While mine is not alone, here is an example of what is, I think, puzzling Whitty:
SaintlyBrees said:
I'm with the others here who think that the steel is sub-par for the offering. I would like to own one and I like the design, but when one already has more knives on his wish list than he can afford in a lifetime (that would be me :D ) then a lower quality steel pushes this far below a lot of other similarly priced knives.

If my intent would be to just look at it or make it into a safe queen then that would be fine, but this one would certainly be a real user for me and the steel just doesn't justify the price, IMHO.

JMO. :)
Click to expand...

SaintlyBrees said:
I don't think it is a matter of being "a blade snob" but rather a matter of perception of value. Personally, I own a wide variety of steels (From inexpensive steels on CRKT, RR, Kershaw - all the way up to S110V on a Spyderco) and agree that 14C28n is a decent user steel when priced right. But where I disagree is that a knife with 14C28n blade steel is worth $250. That steel is far less expensive and this aspect of the knife change my opinion of its value. I would be happy with the knife if it cost less or if it had better steel. But that combo at that price point is a poor value, especially as a mid-priced user - IMHO. :)

That said, I don't begrudge anyone their choice or opinion that it is a good deal for them. It is just not a good value for my needs/want. Too many other options that fit my opinion of better value that I would prefer to buy.
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I think that some folks in that thread are confusing personal preference and desire to statements that the knives are not any good (which isn't happening).

The bottom line here is that for $250 I can buy a better knife, with better steel, so why should I spend my limited $$$ on a product that I feel is using a mismatch steel-to-construction. And here is the most important statement - "That said, I don't begrudge anyone their choice or opinion that it is a good deal for them. It is just not a good value for my needs/want. Too many other options that fit my opinion of better value that I would prefer to buy."

Not sure why this would puzzle anyone. But it is JMO. :)
 
SaintlyBrees said:
Lets bring this into context. What, I suspect, brought this thread into being is a discussion regarding the Southern Grind knives. Typically, they come with 14c28n steel on a nicely finished, well made knife.

Some of us have expressed our opinion on that thread. While mine is not alone, here is an example of what is, I think, puzzling Whitty:




I think that some folks in that thread are confusing personal preference and desire to statements that the knives are not any good (which isn't happening).

The bottom line here is that for $250 I can buy a better knife, with better steel, so why should I spend my limited $$$ on a product that I feel is using a mismatch steel-to-construction. And here is the most important statement - "That said, I don't begrudge anyone their choice or opinion that it is a good deal for them. It is just not a good value for my needs/want. Too many other options that fit my opinion of better value that I would prefer to buy."

Not sure why this would puzzle anyone. But it is JMO. :)
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That all really goes to what performance level a person wants in a knife.

It's about those choices I was talking about in the other posts here.

I don't see how that would or should confuse anyone.

With Spyderco, KAI and Benchmade really upping their game the knives really better perform like they say they will, especially in that price point....

And yes materials do matter.
 
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I can dull a knife seemingly just by looking at it, so I buy the steel with the best reputation for edge-holding.

I have no problem sharpening these blades with my diamond stones. The biggest problem I have is correcting the factory grinds, and I have gotten bad factory grinds from all of the major makers.
 
Ankerson said:
I am not sure why some people are doing what you say they might be doing or not.

Personally I have tested and used them all too over the decades and have come to the conclusion that the steel and the knife have to match the task at hand.

Now what that really means is the following:

  1. The knife has to be designed for the task at hand.
  2. The knife has to have the correct edge and blade geometry for the task at hand.
  3. The knife has to have the correct edge geometry and edge finish for the task at hand.
  4. The steel has to be selected correctly for the task at hand.
  5. The steel has to be heat treated and tempered correctly to fit the above.
  6. The person has to decide what level of performance they need or want as that will effect all of the above as in level of performance.

The knife will only perform as well as the 1st 5 things on the list will allow it to.

The choice has to be made on how well they want the knife to perform taking into count the 1st 5 things on the list.

Notice I didn't add cost into it because cost alone won't make any knife perform, it's the 1st 5 things on the list that will make the knife perform with the 6th thing being the level of performance the knife needs to have.

Now the level of performance means the person has a choice on what level of performance they want or need, and then have have to live with that choice, or they don't and sell it...


Well, steels.....

They are all good, just different and they all have their strong and weak points so one has to compromise somewhat depending on the above and the choices that have been made for various reasons.
Click to expand...

Very well said brother.
 
HWF said:
I enjoy the latest and 'greatest' steel like a lot of folks, but to be perfectly honest, I don't care what type of steel it is as long as it works for me. I love the idea of super steels, and they do tingle my loin, but I've had 'crap' steels perform very well for me and 'supers' the opposite. Is the magic in the ht?
Click to expand...

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!! WTF?!

You owe me a new keyboard!
 
I knew somebody would get a kick out of that. ;) :thumbup:
 
Steel type does not cause me to pull out my wallet. Knowing some do chase what's in vogue. Still, if it's got the wrong edge geometry--the best heat treat is not going to make it cut well.
1) Shape, 2) edge grind, 3) a good track record with heat treating, (do they do a cryogenic cycle) 4) features, i.e. polish, lanyard hole, handle material ect., what I'll use it for and steel type. For me steel type lands toward the end. Plus, I like a polished blade and steels with vanadium resist this. Also, I've found that some good non-vanadium steels can cut right with the vanadium steels. Just my take on steels in general. DM
 
Ontario uses 5160 and can be had for $60-80, and a winkler uses 5160 and is damn near $400 with recycled rubber scales soooooooo.............
 
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