Cliff Stamp
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Blade Steels
- Thread starter rrg991981
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I mean that you can run a standard sharpening stone (diamond or ceramic) over it and sharpen it. Some of the super steels out today wont sharpen at all with the fine grit stones and have to be hit with something rougher. I in no way am supporting using a rock or regular stone to sharpen your knives lol.
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Well, this is basically what I do. i have no sophisticated grinding equipment or technique. In my opinion a good knife steel should be regrindable with a ceramic grinding rod/stick.
Maybe this is the reason why I never succeded with my D2 steel knife. It was dull when I got it and I never got it sharp. Ended up giving it away.
//Jay
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I have a Brian Tighe that will not sharpen on a fine grit stone and have heard from others that they have this problem. I dont have a rockwell tester yet so I'm not shure what Rc it is. When i get to a medium grit diamond then I am making progress. I guess if i stayed at it long enough with the fine I might be able to do it. So I dont know if "immune" would be acurate. As far as easy to sharpen I am thinking most people dont carry around a multi grit sharpening system with them. A ceramic stone rod though fits in a backpack nicely. I dont have any S30V knives I would want to try and sharpen up with fine ceramic
Right now it takes me a lot longer to sharpen a ATS-34 AFCK than a S30V Military on a Sharpmaker. Material data suggests that S30V is more wear resistant than ATS-34, but the edge configurations are very different. The Military has a factory bevel of 12 degrees or so and I'm sharpening at 15, so I'm basically touching the apex of the bevel. The AFCK has about a 15 degree bevel that is maybe 2-2.5 mm wide (angled distance). If I want to sharpen at 15 degrees, I have to shave off a whole layer off the bevel (2-2.5mm wide per side). That is a lot more material to remove, and hence the difficulty (with respect to time).
This is a bevel shot of the Military. The deep grooves are the factory bevel, and the smoother area at the edge is what I have to sharpen. This is about 1/8th of a 1 mm bevel. So by very basic approximations 1/16th to 1/20 of the material need to be removed compared to the AFCK to sharpen to a given depth.
This is a bevel shot of the Military. The deep grooves are the factory bevel, and the smoother area at the edge is what I have to sharpen. This is about 1/8th of a 1 mm bevel. So by very basic approximations 1/16th to 1/20 of the material need to be removed compared to the AFCK to sharpen to a given depth.
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Yes if you are comparing two knives side by side for sharpening it is best to have two knives with similar bevels edge angles ect... I think we can still talk about ease of sharpening. Also the hardness of that S330V or ATS 34 might be playing into it as well. When a well known knife maker says one sharpens easier than the other I assume he has made simmilar blades out of both materials. I know S30V is not the easiest to shapren steel (no one said it cant be done) so when a knife maker tells me it sharpens much easier than S30V I have an idea of what he is talking about. If we really want to test it we could whip up some blades and have them boss heat treated to the same hardness or each to its "ideal" hardness and then try to sharpen both with the same method. I'd rather just stick with its easy to sharpen. =P Since everyone who has sharpened M4 that I have talked to has told me its easy to sharpen I am assuming it is. I didnt ask about ease of sharpening, its something they noticed and relayed. Once I get some I will be able to make stronger asertions about this. However I do not think anyone has ever accused S30V as bieng an easy to sharpen steel. I have heard some production companies are under-hardening it and this may be lending to factory knives that are easier to sharpen than a tripple quench S30V blade with cryo edge treatment from someone who like R.J. Martin is crazy about the hardening process and can Rc test every blade he makes. I cannot comment on this as it is just speculation. I find it odd people are sticking up for the ease of sharpening of S30V. I made a post awhile back on why you would want BG42 in your spyder Military over S30V. The main answer I got was that BG42 is easier to field sharpen wich went with my experience that S30V is not particularly easy to sharpen.
My point is that there is no reason a knife of something like S30V has to be difficult to sharpen in the field. With the same geometry will it be harder than something like 420HC? Sure. Just like lifting an 6 pound box is harder than lifting a 3 pound box, but neither is difficult for a healthy individual. Wearing a small amount of S30V away from the edge is not very difficult either.
Cliff Stamp
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The first question that needs to be asked is what do you mean by hard to sharpen? Hard to shape the edge or it is hard to actually get it very sharp once it is formed? The first part has to do with grindability and the second is a function of edge stability and depends on what type of edge you are trying to obtain. D2 for example is very hard to sharpen to a high polish at acute angles because it suffers from carbide tear out. However it will form a crisp edge easily when optimally hardened so it works very well at coarse finishes and fairly obtuse angles.
If it is grindabilty, if you need similar profiles to actually determine the grindability difference they they are so close it doesn't matter anyway. The grindability differences in various steels are not actually small, they are in fact many to one. So it is obvious very quickly if you try to sharpen ATS-34 vs 12C27M for example as one of these is 20% carbide and the other 0%. They will even feel different on various stones, aside from diamonds because diamond is harder than steel (any steel) like steel is harder than butter.
Grindability is mainly a factor of carbide content and thus aside from the extreme really isn't that sensitive to hardness unless you want to actually file the edge. Plus if you under harden a steel to increase the grindability it in general makes very bad things happen, switch to a steel with a lower carbide content. Hardness does play a critical role in burr formation which actually is reduced as the hardness is increased which makes it easier to get a sharp edge on a steel.
S30V has a low grindability, very low, lower than ATS-34, however, as a general rule, if the grindabilty of a steel has a significant negative influence on you as a knife user then the steel and/or grind is unsuitable for the uses of the knife. I have a S30V knife hardened by Phil Wilson including a full cryogenic hardening in liquid nitrogen and few people run knives harder than Phil. The knife is very easy to sharpen because the grind and steel are well suited for the intended use of the knife so sharpening requires minimal amount of material removal and the high sharpness gives minimal burr formation.
Even if the steel was used on some kind of utility pattern so the edge has to be very thick and obtuse and in constantly getting heavily damaged then there is still no need for the grindability to be a factor. As kel_aa has noted proper use of microbevels will eliminate grindability from being a concern in sharpening. Simply adjust the primary bevel angle until the damage stops and then increase 0.5-1 degree and hone the secondary edge with the finer stones.
Ease of sharpening from the point of view of grindability is mainly a sales pitch.
I have sharpened Wilson's S30V knife on fine arkansas stones (white/black) and a $1 coarse/fine stone I bought at a hardware store. The edges shaved, push cut newsprint, slices 3/8" hemp with well under 10 lbs, etc. . If anyone really tells you that this can't be done then take their knife and try to carve up a cheap stone. Now ask them to explain what happened and then see if the arguement is consistent with the fact that the stone should not be able to sharpen the knife.
That sounds vaguely familiar for some reason.
They all are, unless you are getting customs made out of something like maxamet. There is some issue with high vanadium steels not reaching maximum sharpness on traditional abrasives, Elliott has quantified this, but the level of sharpness is extreme and the difference very small and optimally sharpened, even on waterstones, they can still be made sharper than 95% of the knives I have seen.
-Cliff
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I was speaking about sharpening the edge once formed and dulled. Not grindability. M4 from all acounts is very tough to grind, but is supposed to be easier to sharpen then other high vanadium (4% I think in M4) steels. Like I said, I have an S30V blades that dont sharpen well at all with a fine ceramic rod I use in the field (yes diamond should work in any grit as diamonds are harder than steel) and have been told that fine ceramic sharpens M4 with ease. It may be something about my old beat up sharpening rod or some other unknown factor that causes me to have a hard time with that steel. It may be that the final edge (on M4) can be ground very thin (17 to 18 thousandths of an inch before sharpening according to Osborne) and still has high impact resistance that makes it "easy" to sharpen due to less material having to be romoved to expose a new edge that leads people to tell me that is "easy to sharpen". As far as grind geometry I understand that due to its toughness M4 will develop a wicked burr wich of course must be removed to get a sharp edge. Gayle Bradley states "You need to set an M4 blade up at a slightly steeper sharpening angle to wipe of the wire edge".
Thats it for me in this discussion lol. Im in deep water trying to deffend a steel I havent used myslef yet and have only got to test out for a small period of time. (Im the guy with the dunce hat in the corner if you cant find me) Like I said, when I get more hands on with it I will chime in more on how I like it. I by no means ment that S30V was unsharpenable by materials harder than itself or that proper sharpening technique was not more of an issue than what steel. I have heard others say S30V is harder for them to sharpen than other steels and have trouble with my field sharpener with my S30V knife. I can sharpen it to an extent, but I am not happy with the edge and know once I get home will get a much better one. I usually cary carbon steel fixed blades in the field and it may be that its these two extremes that make me feel like the S30V just isnt going away very fast. But I was very impressed with M4 when I cut with it and when I was told it was easy to sharpen it made me happy. With 1095 I can get a perfect edge out camping with my beat up old ceramic rod (perfect enough of course) but with S30V I wait to get home. Like I had said, I was speculating about hardness playing into it but your wilson seems to debunk that issue. All I can say is that if you had that same wilson in a Carbon steel I think you would agree that the is easier to sharpen (again as in the speed to take it from dulled back to hair shaving [or whatever]) If not I must have a mental condition that causes me to percieve this lol. My experience with my S30V and my field sharpener has most likely caused me to exagerate this or attribute it to knife instead of the sharpener. I never ment to say that a good diamond field sharpener cant abrade the "new super steels" but I can see that thats what my statement sounded like. Also no more posting after 3 beers, I tend to ramble.
Thats it for me in this discussion lol. Im in deep water trying to deffend a steel I havent used myslef yet and have only got to test out for a small period of time. (Im the guy with the dunce hat in the corner if you cant find me) Like I said, when I get more hands on with it I will chime in more on how I like it. I by no means ment that S30V was unsharpenable by materials harder than itself or that proper sharpening technique was not more of an issue than what steel. I have heard others say S30V is harder for them to sharpen than other steels and have trouble with my field sharpener with my S30V knife. I can sharpen it to an extent, but I am not happy with the edge and know once I get home will get a much better one. I usually cary carbon steel fixed blades in the field and it may be that its these two extremes that make me feel like the S30V just isnt going away very fast. But I was very impressed with M4 when I cut with it and when I was told it was easy to sharpen it made me happy. With 1095 I can get a perfect edge out camping with my beat up old ceramic rod (perfect enough of course) but with S30V I wait to get home. Like I had said, I was speculating about hardness playing into it but your wilson seems to debunk that issue. All I can say is that if you had that same wilson in a Carbon steel I think you would agree that the is easier to sharpen (again as in the speed to take it from dulled back to hair shaving [or whatever]) If not I must have a mental condition that causes me to percieve this lol. My experience with my S30V and my field sharpener has most likely caused me to exagerate this or attribute it to knife instead of the sharpener. I never ment to say that a good diamond field sharpener cant abrade the "new super steels" but I can see that thats what my statement sounded like. Also no more posting after 3 beers, I tend to ramble.
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BigJim-
You keep talking about this steel's toughness and impact resistance, but on paper it certainly doesn't look like much to get excited about. I have no experience with this steel either, so don't want this to come across wrong, but if I needed a tough steel I'd skip past the steels with only 20-30 ft lbs in the impact tests. That's pretty much in the ballpark of high carbon stainless steels, i.e., "brittle". Contrast that with L6, which gets in the 70's, or S5, which can get like 130 ft-lbs at 61 Rc.
I'm not gonna discount it entirely, because that edge thickness quoted by Osborne does sound nice & thin, but then again that's for controlled use by a very skilled individual. I'd be curious to know what that blade would look like the first time I accidentally whack some concrete with it while coon huntin'.
You keep talking about this steel's toughness and impact resistance, but on paper it certainly doesn't look like much to get excited about. I have no experience with this steel either, so don't want this to come across wrong, but if I needed a tough steel I'd skip past the steels with only 20-30 ft lbs in the impact tests. That's pretty much in the ballpark of high carbon stainless steels, i.e., "brittle". Contrast that with L6, which gets in the 70's, or S5, which can get like 130 ft-lbs at 61 Rc.
I'm not gonna discount it entirely, because that edge thickness quoted by Osborne does sound nice & thin, but then again that's for controlled use by a very skilled individual. I'd be curious to know what that blade would look like the first time I accidentally whack some concrete with it while coon huntin'.
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I dont know about concrete but M4 blades ground as thin as Osborne stated choped much wood and cut metal cans at the cutting competition and had little enough edge dammage to still slice in half a rolling ping pong ball and decapitate like 15 water bottles in a single swipe (damn it I said I was done with this thread, stop making me a liar possum >< ). Osborne also said "At 58 rockwell it will bend and will not break" and that even with a primary bevel ending at 17 thousandths of an inch at 62.5Rc would not chip out. Halfrich who also used M4 at this years cutting competition said "It's the king of cutting competitions. Its some tough stuff, it really is." Now I am not to hot on paper when it comes to steels. A metalurgist type person will tell you they can look at a steel on paper and tell you how well it will do this or that. I find that paper only tells part of the story. From every single knife maker who has used M4 (that I have heard or read anything from that is =P ) I hear it has great impact resistance and its domminance in this years cut off should go towards backing that up. I will no speak on the virtues or problems of M4 anymore till I get some in my hands and have a blade. I am swimming in speculations and hersay (wich I have admitted from the begining). For know I will say this steel impressed me outright. If you get a chance check some out in action. Until I get more hands on with it I am staying quite.
Larrin
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In the same range of hardness as the high carbon stainlesses (59-61), it's in the 34-40 range, not 20-30. 440C gets 26 ft. lbs. at 56 Rc, and 16 ft. lbs. at 58 Rc. 154CM is somewhere around 16 ft. lbs. at 60 Rc. S30V is 20-25 ft. lbs. at 60 Rc. And at 60-62 Rc, L6 gets 43 ft. lbs., you have to get down to 56-58 to get 68 ft. lbs. Just because there are steels that have much higher toughness doesn't mean that CPM-M4 does not has far more toughness than required for a chopper either. Osbourne says that S30V is the closest a stainless came to working as a chopper, but he uses a knife for a month before he deems it useable, and his S30V didn't last a month, it eventually started to chip. I don't know what other stainlesses he used, but testing 154CM seems likely for him, but I can't say for sure. The excitement for CPM-M4 is that it has plenty of toughness for heavy use blades (i.e. choppers), and it also has some very high wear resistance. It is that balance of properties that is quite possibly the most sought after in a steel, disregarding corrosion resistance. Being comprised of molybdenum and vanadium carbides at a total volume of 12%, the carbide size of CPM-M4 is slightly larger than 3V, but is smaller than 10V, S90V, CPM154, and S30V, so it takes a pretty keen edge too. There is a point of diminshing return for higher toughness depending on the application and the design, but a higher wear resistance will always bring an increase in performance (and a decrease in ease of sharpening).
Oh, and Osbourne says that the distance between too thin and too thick for a chopper is very small. I can't remember what the tolerance was, but it was very small.
Cliff Stamp
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This would have little to do with toughness because those materials are very soft.
I'll buy a piece and pay to have it heat treated if you are really curious.
I don't see how this is consistent with :
That sounds like a steel which is hard to sharpen to me. Note that being prone to burrs is not an indication of toughness it is a sign that the edge doesn't have the strength to be stable under the cutting abrasive.
What do you use it for and what is the condition of the edge before you sharpen. I would bet that it is one or more of; the edge is micro-chipping, the steel is underhardened, the edge is far too thick/obtuse.
Most of my knives have similar profiles including some low alloy carbon steels. I have a 1095 blade at 66 HRC for example which sharpens really nice, almost no burr formation. Grindability really isn't a factor because I only actually sharpen the edge which is about 0.1 mm wide.
S30V is a brittle stainless so that isn't surprising that it doesn't work as a heavy chopper. You would expect it to be better than something like 440C, S90V etc., but it is hardly an ideal stainless for impact work. You would want to work with a much lower carbide content, pick the same type of stainless steel as you would carbon steel. If 52100 works well in cutting competitons then the Sandvik series steels would as well as they have the same carbide structure and martensite carbon level. If S30V was ideal for a stainless for such competitons then you would expect tool steels like D2 and A11 to be used, not L6, O1, 52100, etc. .
For large blades, the edge retention tends to be dominated by strength/toughness related issues because in reality you are not cutting washed lumber. Bark is filled up with grit, grass hides debris, idiots spike trees, etc. . Wear resistance isn't really a concern because the amount of clean wood you have to chop to actually wear away steel from an edge is insane. I have for example done trials of 1000 chops on very simple steels (1045 and similar) and they can still slice paper easily.
However any gain in hardness will increase deformation resistance which is a major benefit as it will allow a thinner edge and any gain in toughness will directly limit damage when the edge impacts something hard. It is also rare to smash an edge off of something and not wish there was more impact toughness either.
The performance is linear and below in terms of cutting performance and since the stiffness of a steel is cubic and the strength quadratic with thickness, you would not expect performance limitations to be so narrow. Of course in competition between elite athletes then the difference between winning and losing can be so small a percent a normal person would never see it. Few people can run 100 m in 11 s, but if you ran that at an olympic event you would be standing still. Average people don't buy olympic bikes to ride to work for this reason. As a more direct example, loggers don't use the chopping axes in the Stihl lumberjack series - which are actually cast stainless steel. The steel really doesn't matter that much because the volume of work is simply too low. Nothing goes blunt chopping through one piece of 12" pine, let alone a 2x4. The same axes will also work for event after even until they hit something they should not at which point they are retired because you can't sharpen out any significant damage at that level of competition because it effects the performance too much. This of course also doesn't happen to working blades. Possum doesn't make a new knife every time he hits a rock or a nail.
-Cliff
Fine hard edges with simple sharpening? Japanese.
Best? Not necessarily. Corrosion and brittleness, for instance.
To my mind, while BG-42 and VG-10 are my favorite rivals to the SVs, currently the best of both worlds, modern supersteels and fine Japanese blades, might be R2 and Cowry-Y. For their prospective tasks in high end fbs and folders, of course
Best? Not necessarily. Corrosion and brittleness, for instance.
To my mind, while BG-42 and VG-10 are my favorite rivals to the SVs, currently the best of both worlds, modern supersteels and fine Japanese blades, might be R2 and Cowry-Y. For their prospective tasks in high end fbs and folders, of course
I can recomend R2. I have a 4 1/2" drop point blade made from this steel. And after thinning the blade I "played with it" (not trying to get it sharp) with my arkansas stones. I spent less than a minute on the washita and the same on the hard Arkansas. I stropped it on maple boards using 6 micron SIC and then on another board with 1.8 micron boron carbide. The least amount of time I ever spent on a blade, but also the sharpest I ever got one. But this little puppy will never see a peice of concrete. I intend to use it for its intended purpose. But hey, if someone has the bucks to see how well this steel holds up please post it, I am always interested in how steel holds up.
Especially the steel I use.
Especially the steel I use.
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I don't think you can answer the original question of what is the best blade steel, not for the masses anyway. Both the masses of people using the knives, and the manufacturers will have different answers to what is best as will a steel junky vs an average Joe that uses his cheapy folder. It seems to me doing the sharpening I do for a lot of guys that I think represent a pretty good cross section of the typical end line user that they will basically take any steel that happens to come in a handle they like and use it and be pretty happy with it.
Believe me it doesn't much matter if they have a AUS6 blade, a 440A blade, or a 13C26, or some cheap China or surgical stainless model. By the time I get them for a new edge they are pretty much in the same condition regardless of the blade steel. Meaning they are about on par with a typical butter knife in your kitchen drawer. I recently gave a S30V G10 Kershaw Leek to my neighbor who had give me a big load of firewood. Now this was a good knife. I hesitated to give it to him but I wanted a report back from him on how it did, if he saw any edge chipping or problems with it and to keep me apprised. This is a guy that beats the living hell out of knives ok. I saw his Scallion from Wal-Mart for a sharpening and cleaning about a year after he bought it and could not believe the condition of it. Mine won't look like that long after I'm dead and gone.
Anyway, the point is he doesn't like the Leek. Said the Scallion was better and seemed to him to cut better. He knows nothing about S30V. I certainly didn't tell him anything other than to give me the report I asked for. I did sharpen it for him yesterday after about two weeks of his having it on him. All I can say is that it had dulled tremendously in that time. He told me that it cut good at first, but didn't seem to do too well after he cleaned some spark plugs with it and used it for some other jobs. I didn't get into what those were with him yet, I hope to catch him here soon to get a detailed report of the kinds of jobs he did with it. He actually told me I could have it back if I wanted it, because he found one at Wal Mart he likes better. I think its another Scallion. I also think he seems to prefer serrations. So, what do you think he would pick as a 'best' steel?
I think here you have your typical end line user that basically just will take whatever knife he carries to the same level of sharpness no matter what the steel is. That is probably why so many guys run around out there with a cheap China made or Taiwan made knock off feeling its a fine knife. It was cheap and I honestly don't think they see any difference between its performance over a so called higher end performance steel for the jobs they do with it. This is why contrary to thin being in for most of us it won't work for these masses out there in la la land because of the way they will use the blades they carry. From what I see most of these good ole boys seem to take better care of their good fixed blade hunting knife than they do the pocket folder they carry and beat up everyday. They are certainly in far better shape when I see them for a touch up to the edge or sheath repair.
Who can blame the manufacturers for choosing a cheaper steel when the masses are going to be perfectly happy with it? I can't see any reason to use anything other than a good easily blankable steel can you? What do you think the manufacturers would say the best steel is?
STR
Believe me it doesn't much matter if they have a AUS6 blade, a 440A blade, or a 13C26, or some cheap China or surgical stainless model. By the time I get them for a new edge they are pretty much in the same condition regardless of the blade steel. Meaning they are about on par with a typical butter knife in your kitchen drawer. I recently gave a S30V G10 Kershaw Leek to my neighbor who had give me a big load of firewood. Now this was a good knife. I hesitated to give it to him but I wanted a report back from him on how it did, if he saw any edge chipping or problems with it and to keep me apprised. This is a guy that beats the living hell out of knives ok. I saw his Scallion from Wal-Mart for a sharpening and cleaning about a year after he bought it and could not believe the condition of it. Mine won't look like that long after I'm dead and gone.
Anyway, the point is he doesn't like the Leek. Said the Scallion was better and seemed to him to cut better. He knows nothing about S30V. I certainly didn't tell him anything other than to give me the report I asked for. I did sharpen it for him yesterday after about two weeks of his having it on him. All I can say is that it had dulled tremendously in that time. He told me that it cut good at first, but didn't seem to do too well after he cleaned some spark plugs with it and used it for some other jobs. I didn't get into what those were with him yet, I hope to catch him here soon to get a detailed report of the kinds of jobs he did with it. He actually told me I could have it back if I wanted it, because he found one at Wal Mart he likes better. I think its another Scallion. I also think he seems to prefer serrations. So, what do you think he would pick as a 'best' steel?
I think here you have your typical end line user that basically just will take whatever knife he carries to the same level of sharpness no matter what the steel is. That is probably why so many guys run around out there with a cheap China made or Taiwan made knock off feeling its a fine knife. It was cheap and I honestly don't think they see any difference between its performance over a so called higher end performance steel for the jobs they do with it. This is why contrary to thin being in for most of us it won't work for these masses out there in la la land because of the way they will use the blades they carry. From what I see most of these good ole boys seem to take better care of their good fixed blade hunting knife than they do the pocket folder they carry and beat up everyday. They are certainly in far better shape when I see them for a touch up to the edge or sheath repair.
Who can blame the manufacturers for choosing a cheaper steel when the masses are going to be perfectly happy with it? I can't see any reason to use anything other than a good easily blankable steel can you? What do you think the manufacturers would say the best steel is?
STR
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Well I think you have a couple different markets, at least. There's us knuts that you can't determine a best steel for because most of us will try anything at least once, and are always looking for an excuse to buy another blade. There's others who are fairly maker specific, so the best steel is the one with the right stamp on it. I think most users are fine with the same steel they have in their kitchen drawer, and just consider what most of that is. A huge compromise seems to be the requirement for toughness alongside stain resistance. It's pretty easy to produce a knife that won't shatter, rust right away, and machines really easily. Making that thing ct for any length of time, that's another matter.
I fold over a piece of sandpaper and get in the gap to clean plugs. Trying to scrape the carbon off with a blade was never easy, and naturally screwed up my edge. Under the hood is not a blade friendly place. I gotta change the head gaskets on my truck this weekend, damn thing only has 76K miles.
I fold over a piece of sandpaper and get in the gap to clean plugs. Trying to scrape the carbon off with a blade was never easy, and naturally screwed up my edge. Under the hood is not a blade friendly place. I gotta change the head gaskets on my truck this weekend, damn thing only has 76K miles.