Blatent Kershaw Knockoff!!!!

[Thomas W]

Why would it bother me? I'm not the recipient. Does it bother you that so many companies copied the 110? It may have bothered Buck, but I got more choices as a consumer. Few knife nuts are going to be fooled by a "cheap, no-name, imported" copy. Those who are fooled, aren't so much fooled as simply don't care about anything else but price and availability.

Interestingly, Buck is still around, and many of the companies that made copies (Schrade, Camillus, etc) are long gone. Perhaps there's a lesson to be gleaned from this history.

shecky, we are getting into an area where ethically and for legal reasons I am unable to really speak freely.

So if I am reading you correctly, you are saying you have inside knowledge that no agreements were discussed or documents signed with the parties you mentioned above?

There has been very little publicly said about legit manufacturers, and the imposing of their patents, trademarks or copyrights, against others, nor will there be. Some on this board have become quite emotional in regards to one manufacturer utilizing a feature or a design that seemingly “copies” the originator. What most people don’t know is if this was all done in a fair, honest, and legal way. Without this inside info, it becomes impossible for one to hold any manufacturer or maker in bad light. That is of course unless you are just a fanboy or girl and have bias for a particular brand name, or you just want to be a hater without having all the facts. This no doubt is your prerogative, but an uninformed one, that I shouldn’t be taken seriously. Personally, in these types of situations, I wouldn’t want to be an individual that bases attitudes on feelings more than facts, but that’s just me.

With that said shecky, you are the first person I have run into that sides with a knockoff company riding on the hard work and talents of both a maker (Ken Onion) and the manufacturer (Kai USA) in this case (there are countless others). We both have put in the time, taken the legal and proper steps, invested into the patents and factory, to ensure designs and specific features are recognized. Because of all of this, there are specific steps needed for another to utilize these legal binding patents. This knockoff company didn’t do that, but there are many legit factories that do. I know without this information being made public that it is difficult for someone to make a determination one way or another, but drawing conclusions is certainly not the best in this situation.

 

[glockman99]

What goes around comes around...Karma will catch up to those rip-offs!.:grumpy:.

 

[redsst]

While I agree with Thomas, if I was Ken Onion, while I would probably be ticked-off, I also probably couldn’t help but feel a little flattered.
I mean, what better way to say "You've Made It" as a knife designer/maker than to have an Asian company copy your designs with a cheap knick-off.

 

[Cutshaw]

Offensive.

Similar, cheap knockoffs are personally offensive. Blatant copies are highly offensive (which is the case here.) Violation of trademarks should be vigorously pursued by the trademark owner if the value of the trademark is to be maintained. It is not being petty or peevish.

Most of this crap product is seen on either Ebay, flea markets or the "junk tables" in a gun show.

While I agree with Thomas, if I was Ken Onion, while I would probably be ticked-off, I also probably couldn’t help but feel a little flattered.
I mean, what better way to say "You've Made It" as a knife designer/maker than to have an Asian company copy your designs with a cheap knick-off.

I see what you're saying but my first inclination would probably be, "Why those little b*****ds!"

That was certainly my first thought when I see the website squatters**, with whom I have had to deal, who either closely mimic the content the user EXPECTS to see or simply floods the terminal with popups. If it wasn't for the propogating nature of PC viruses, I would love to stick 'em with a virus or two!

Theft of intellectual property, particularly over international borders, isn't taken nearly as seriously as it ought by the global community. This practice is especially rampant with software.

**By that, I mean those who register sites with a common misspelling of another site www.ekrshaw.com or with a similar name, kershaw.net.

 

[Kohai999]

Makes me feel bad for Kershaw and all the other companies that suffer from the counterfeits, though. Every time some moron gets one of those pieces of junk, or even some unsuspecting person receives one as a gift and has a bad experience with it, Kershaw's reputation gets hurt.

1. It may or may not hurt Kershaw's reputation when a knockoff gets sold. It DOES hurt Kershaw's bottom line. Everybody understands Intellectual Property laws, right? Well, when items like this get imported and sold in the U.S.....it is theft against the originator of the ideas.

2. It is not "cool to get your stuff copied by the Asian factories" or some such. It IS cool when your peers request, and receive approval to utilize your designs, and you get credit for that. What the cheap imports are doing is stealing; from the originating company that created the items, AND from the consumer who might mistakenly believe that they are purchasing a quality product.

3. Anyone who knowingly and willingly buys an item like this is an enemy of the United States of America. Think that is a bit harsh? You are aiding and abetting THIEVES who's combined actions help to destroy American companies, and ultimately hurt the American worker. Way to go, whoever you are!

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[yans]

I actually feel bad about posting this now because of the responces it has brought. The reason that I did post this was to inform someone that their ideas are being stolen and used for gain by others than whom MADE the original design and did not LICENSE anyone to duplicate. My hope was that people here dont see this as flattery, or price of doing buissness, but as pure unadulterated theft.

 

[2brothers]

3. Anyone who knowingly and willingly buys an item like this is an enemy of the United States of America. Think that is a bit harsh? You are aiding and abetting THIEVES who's combined actions help to destroy American companies, and ultimately hurt the American worker. Way to go, whoever you are!

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

I like that, just the way you phrased it.

mike

 

[shecky]

With that said shecky, you are the first person I have run into that sides with a knockoff company riding on the hard work and talents of both a maker (Ken Onion) and the manufacturer (Kai USA) in this case (there are countless others).

Yup. I like the fact that copies exist. Even unauthorized copies. More choices for me, more competition for manufacturers, more designs come about in the never ending race to keep ahead of the pack. Nobody gets to rest on their laurels in a capitalist system. That is a good thing.

Every good idea will be copied. End of story. If you cannot deal with this harsh fact of life, you need to get out of the business.

3. Anyone who knowingly and willingly buys an item like this is an enemy of the United States of America. Think that is a bit harsh? You are aiding and abetting THIEVES who's combined actions help to destroy American companies, and ultimately hurt the American worker. Way to go, whoever you are!

Enemy of the State, here, by defending the reality of the marketplace. Despite all the hysterics over the destruction of American companies and jobs, US manufacturing, profits, revenue, exports, wages/compensation are at an all time peak. The US produces the largest share in manufacturing in the world, and outputs 2.5 times China.

Doom and gloom over the waning American manufacturing sector is a losing game.

 

[Thomas W]

Yup. I like the fact that copies exist. Even unauthorized copies. More choices for me, more competition for manufacturers, more designs come about in the never ending race to keep ahead of the pack. Nobody gets to rest on their laurels in a capitalist system. That is a good thing.

Interestingly, Buck is still around, and many of the companies that made copies (Schrade, Camillus, etc) are long gone. Perhaps there's a lesson to be gleaned from this history.

Maybe it's me, but you seem to be playing both sides of the fence on this. So you like the choices from all of the knockoff's, and this is a good thing (your words), but there is a lesson to be gleaned from it as well, and that is manufacturers that copy are bad and deserve to go out of business? I'm not sure I really need to hear you explanation on this, but it does makes me shake my head.

Btw shecky, you never answered my question on if you had insight on Buck/Schrade/Camillus agreements (or not) concerning the 110.

 

[Cutshaw]

You know? I usually do a pretty good job of trying to see the viewpoint of others and, even when I don't agree, at least empathizing with them and can understand how they got there.

In this case I'm lost, shecky.

True - A successful product is "copied" when it is obvious there is a niche to be filled. It is free trade, competition and the underpinning of the western world. No problem. It's hot outside... your competitor sells more cars because his have the addition of air conditioning. You add ac. Internet service, automobiles, fresh fruit in the wintertime. Whatever?!

What I can't resolve, in this case, is this is NOT an example of a manufacturer bringing a competing product to market. Nooooo... that would be competition and free trade. We are talking about someone reverse engineering a knife and pressing into manufacture AN EXACT COPY OF YOUR PRODUCT.

There are laws in this free little country of ours prohibiting theft of intellectual property, trademarks, patent designs and copyrights. Unfortunately, there are no "copyright police" who go around looking for these violations to enforce. Enforcement is done by the owner of the property (TM, C, whatever) when they bring these examples to court.

If the violator is an overseas business, working under a government without trade agreements with the U.S., the best that can be done is to confiscate the in-country material and ban further import.

How you can equate this to free trade, etc., is beyond me.

THIS is an offender who takes the product of countless dollars in design, engineering and development & MAKES AN EXACT COPY FOR CHEAP MANUFACTURE. They incurred none of the associated development costs for the product.

I realize this happens in our western business world too. At least here, they use reverse engineering to get ideas for their own advancement but still continue with their own development. Not to hand over a competing product to the CAD kid and CNC manager to say, "Make me 5,000 of these." That is theft - pure and simple.

It is most rampant with software theft. How many copies can you make then resell of that newest app? Sure, it may feel kinda fun to pay $5 for that black market DVD. It doesn't change the fact that is still illegal and protected against here in the U.S..

Free trade that ain't, shecky. It's called theft. Anything else is self-justification from receiving of stolen goods. To imply that a manufacturer man-up and deal with it is insane.

 

[Cutshaw]

And... and... to say this FURTHERS competition is nuts. It makes a manufacturer LESS likely to incur design/development costs when the results are stolen and sold to someone looking to buy on the cheap.

Without financial return from the R&D costs, they can't afford to do it again. All those developers quit and all you're left with are those who can stand on the shoulders of giants and copy.

A code software developer, working away, and the punk kid selecting "copy" on Nero are on two totally different levels.

No different with this blatant copy.

 

[Cutshaw]

Yup. I like the fact that copies exist.. ..more designs come about in the never ending race to keep ahead of the pack

No... they don't. Not when we're talking about the example of the criminal element acting in this manner. Theft of intellectual property. Corporate espionage may seem "fine" to you but it is still illegal.

What happens is more money is spent, not to improve a product, but to ensure that they product can't be reverse-engineered, code broken, or installed without the proper license. Unduly complicating software and hardware - increasing the price to the honest, legitimate consumer - increasing the bugginess and maintenance.

All because two pieces of garbage got together to:

a) make a quick buck of other's work
b) get something of value for less than its cost to manufacture - start to finish.

 

[svrider3]

I'm not going to quote everything you said Paddling man, but very well said.

I wonder if shecky were to put up a lot of money on an idea/product and started selling it out of his basement and someone came along and purchased one, copied it and started selling it for half the price on the other side of town.....would this make shecky happy?? I don't F$%king think so. Take you a handful of this :jerkit: and your logic somewhere someone may give a damn.

Have a great day.

 

[Keith Montgomery]

Wow shecky, those are some classy posts.

In my opinion companies that copy the designs of others are beneath contempt. I have no use for them and wouldn't consider purchasing one of their products, even if it was pretty well made.

 

[Broos]

Yeah, it's wrong, but everybody does it so it must not be so bad. If it hurts others, but benefits him, he's OK with it. Unfortunately this is indicative of the principles that many base their existence on. Obviously he does not have an issue with someone profiting from anothers misfortune or labor, but I would at least hope he would not try to convince us this is a positive good! What a load of crappola.

 

[nygiantsfan3342]

Yup. I like the fact that copies exist. Even unauthorized copies.

Every good idea will be copied. End of story. If you cannot deal with this harsh fact of life, you need to get out of the business.

Cliff? Is that you?

Shecky, you are awfully antagonistic. Why come to a Kershaw forum to praise artistic theft? It's not like the knock-offs are helping to keep the prices of knives down. Kershaw offers the best quality knives at some of the lowest prices on the market. If the knock-offs didn't exist, Kershaw couldn't just "decide" to double their prices. I guess I fail to see the upside to a crappy imitation knife.

 

[Cutshaw]

Cliff? Is that you?

 

[shecky]

Why come to a Kershaw forum to praise artistic theft?

I don't necessarily praise copies. I simply state fact. Does anybody seriously argue that copies are not a fact of life?

If it hurts others, but benefits him, he's OK with it.

Capitalism sucks, doesn't it?

In my opinion companies that copy the designs of others are beneath contempt. I have no use for them and wouldn't consider purchasing one of their products, even if it was pretty well made.

Good for you. Just don't ask me to conform to your ethical standards.

I wonder if shecky were to put up a lot of money on an idea/product and started selling it out of his basement and someone came along and purchased one, copied it and started selling it for half the price on the other side of town.....would this make shecky happy?

Of course not. But that's life. Get over it.

No... they don't. Not when we're talking about the example of the criminal element acting in this manner. Theft of intellectual property. Corporate espionage may seem "fine" to you but it is still illegal.

Thomas W said the copy violates patents. In that case, it's up to Kershaw to defend their IP. Not me.

What happens is more money is spent, not to improve a product, but to ensure that they product can't be reverse-engineered, code broken, or installed without the proper license. Unduly complicating software and hardware - increasing the price to the honest, legitimate consumer - increasing the bugginess and maintenance.

In many cases, it's money wasted. Building a loyal customer base is a better strategy.

And... and... to say this FURTHERS competition is nuts. It makes a manufacturer LESS likely to incur design/development costs when the results are stolen and sold to someone looking to buy on the cheap.

If one wants to stay in business, one must evolve to face such obstacles. Refusal to do so means extinction. Addressing the challenge means making R&D and setup costs less expensive. EVERYBODY has to deal with these problems. Successful companies, even moreso.

What I can't resolve, in this case, is this is NOT an example of a manufacturer bringing a competing product to market. Nooooo... that would be competition and free trade. We are talking about someone reverse engineering a knife and pressing into manufacture AN EXACT COPY OF YOUR PRODUCT.

Reverse engineering a knife isn't the most complicated thing in the world. That goes with the territory. Knife manufacturers have to deal with it. Additionally, reverse engineering is generally pretty much completely legal.

Maybe it's me, but you seem to be playing both sides of the fence on this. So you like the choices from all of the knockoff's, and this is a good thing (your words), but there is a lesson to be gleaned from it as well, and that is manufacturers that copy are bad and deserve to go out of business? I'm not sure I really need to hear you explanation on this, but it does makes me shake my head.

Btw shecky, you never answered my question on if you had insight on Buck/Schrade/Camillus agreements (or not) concerning the 110.

I don't say businesses who copy are bad. I do say manufacturing too many "me too" products such as Schrade and Camillus may hurt in the long run. Companies like Kershaw thrive in the market by making/marketing new, novel designs, not copying someone else's successful design. In their case, it doesn't even matter if they had formal agreements or not. It didn't help them in the long run.

 

[BossMaverick]

I was going to type up a long winded reply to Shecky's replies that would've touched on many aspects of this debate, but I'm too tired and probably won't make a difference to him anyways, so I will keep it short (and yes, this may be blunt and cause friction with me and others, but whatever)...






















My response:

Ethics; some people know what it means, some people don't.

 

[redsst]

This whole thing is a non-issue. Everybody is treating these knock-offs as if they are in direct competition with Kershaw. That knock-off is something you would see on the Home Shopping Network at 2am. The type of person that buys those knives DO NOT buy Kershaws and vise-versa. They don't even visit this site. If fact, I doubt anyone on this website has ever bought one of those HSN/Korean-Krap knives. I think everyone here is giving far too much credit to the knock-off. Kershaw will not loose a single customer because of that knife or others like it.