Blood Groove?

Joined
Nov 8, 1999
Messages
17
I see some knives with a "blood groove." Apparently it is a longitudinal groove in the back of the blade that runs about 2/3 the length of the blade.

What is the purpose? Is it entirely decorative? Does it make people/animals actually bleed faster? Does it make a knife more desireable?

Thanks,

Steve Koski
 
Steve:

You might want to check the "shop talk" forum and see if its been discussed before. If not post your question there as there are a lot of knowledgeable makers that can answer your question. (Frankly, at one time I think the blood groove was functional--however, now I think it is just decorative), but I can be wrong.
 
Steve,
The proper term for a "blood groove" is "fuller". The fuller was originally put into
swords to lighten and strengthen the blade.
It is sort of like an I-beam. The groove removes weight without weakening the blade.
When you see a groove in a small knife it is mainly for decoration. I'm not sure who labeled it a "blood groove", but it was probably done so to make that person and his knife seem like a bada$$ when he more than likely wasn't, IMHO.

Barry
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=126319&a=926274
 
The grove in a knife allow the air to get in around the blade, in order to remove it. Otherwise there can be a suction that makes it difficult to remove. In the Bible there was a big fat guy stabbed with a knife and the suction was so great the knife disappeared inside of him. I have a set of Chicago Butcher knifes that have groves in them, and they are not there for decoration. These are plain looking knives made out of superior material, designed to get the job done.
 
JohnR7,

Your post implies that there is some reason that air would need to go around a knife when withdrawing it. I see no such reason. It's not like withdrawing the plunger on a syringe (with the tip plugged). In that case there is a fixed volume. The air pressure on the back of the plunger opposes its withdrawal. Air can't rush around the plunger to fill the fixed volume.

With a knife in flesh, there is no fixed volume. The flesh moved aside when the knife went in, and it can move back together quite easily as the knife is withdrawn.

I'm with the other guys. It's similar to a fluted rifle barrel. For the same weight, a fluted barrel is stiffer and cools faster than a bull barrel. For the same maximum OD, a fluted barrel is lighter, cools faster, but is slightly less stiff than a bull barrel. A good trade off.

A fuller is a (good) trade off:

1) Given the same outer dimensions, a blade with a fuller will be slightly less stiff, but significantly lighter.

2) Given the same weight of blade, a blade with a fuller will be stiffer than one without.

I also agree with the point that the weight reduction, or stiffness increase becomes less significant as the blade gets smaller.

Thanks everyone,

Steve Koski
skoski@geneva.com
 
Steve,

All I can say is that I have been told by hunters the same thing John has related. I won't attest to its validity, but this has been presented to me as a plausible if not certain explanation.

Another reason for grooves and perforations in medieval weapons is the belief that air in the wound will make it more deadly. These same devices may also have been used to hold poison. None of this applies to modern knives, of course.

-Drew
 
Joe,

I just checked again and I can only find the following FAQs. Am I missing something or is there a problem?

FAQ: Blade Geometry
by Joe Talmadge
FAQ: Liner Locks
by Joe Talmadge & A.T. Barr
FAQ: Multi-Tools
by Joe Talmadge
FAQ: Plain vs. Serrated Edges
by Joe Talmadge
FAQ: Knife Sharpening
by Joe Talmadge
FAQ: Steel Types
by Joe Talmadge
 
I keep Joe's FAQs archived on my site. Here is the Blood Groove FAQ:


What is a Blood Groove For?
Author: Joe Talmadge


This question comes up every 8 months or so. The blood groove on a knife probably is derived from the channel present on swords, where it is called a "fuller". There are some persistent myths floating around about the function of blood grooves, from "releases the vacuum when the knife is thrust into a person" to "no functional use, purely decorative". Let's talk about these wrong answers first, before we talk about the right answers.


Wrong Answer #1: Releasing the Body Suction

Basically, this theory postulates that the blood groove is present to facilitate withdrawing the knife from a person/animal. In this scenario, it is said that the animal's muscles contract around the knife blade, and that this causes a vacuum, which makes the knife difficult to withdraw. But on a knife with a blood groove, blood runs through the blood groove and breaks the suction, so the knife can be withdrawn with less difficulty.

One problem is that there's no evidence that this suction ever really happens. Also, over and over again people report that there is no difference whatsoever in the difficulty of withdrawing a knife with a blood groove vs. one without. This is one theory that has been tested and found wanting.

Yes, I realize you may have heard this myth from your deadly knife instructor, or read it in a book somewhere. But the experts agree that it is false. If your knife can cut its way in, it can just as easily cut its way out, with or without a blood groove.

And with that, I am going to change terminology from "blood groove" to "fuller", since we all now know the so-called "blood groove" is not playing a blood-channeling function.


Wrong Answer #2: Purely Decorative

There is a grain of truth to this one. Although a fuller does play a functional role, on a short knife the effect might be so small as to be insignificant. Many believe the fuller plays a strictly decorative role on knives or swords under 2 feet long. As the knife or sword gets bigger, the fuller plays an increasingly important role. On smaller knives, it is indeed probably just decorative.


RIGHT ANSWERS:

Okay, so what substantive role does the blood groove/fuller play? The bottom line is, it does two things:


It stiffens the blade
It lightens the blade
That first statment has been the subject of some controversy, with some people sending me equations purporting to show that the removal of material cannot make the blade stiffer. I will table for now the question of "does the blade get stiffer, in some absolute sense, due to the fuller?" Rather, I'll weaken the claim to say that the blade *feels* stiffer to the user who is waving it around -- because it's stiffer for its weight.

I'll reproduce a post by Jim Hrisoulas which lays things out clearly (re-printed with permission):

When you fuller a blade you do several things:


You lighten it by using less material, as the act of forging in the fuller actually widens the blade, so you use less material than you would if you forged an unfullered blade. (In stock removal the blade would also be lighter, as you would be removing the material instead of leaving it there).

You stiffen the blade. In an unfullered blade, you only have a "single" center spine. This is especially true in terms of the flattened diamond cross section common to most unfullered double- edged blades. This cross section would be rather "whippy" on a blade that is close to three feet long. Fullering produces two "spines" on the blade, one on each side of the fuller where the edge bevels come in contact with the fuller. This stiffens the blade, and the difference between a non-fullered blade and a fullered one is quite remarkable.
Fullers on knives do the same thing, although on a smaller blade the effects are not as easily seen or felt. Actually looking at fullers from an engineering point of view they really are a sophisticated forging technique, and it was the fullered swordblade that pointed the way to modern "I" beam construction.

When combined with proper distal tapers, proper heat treating and tempering, a fullered blade will, without a doubt, be anywhere from 20% to 35% lighter than a non-fullered blade without any sacrifice of strength or blade integrity.

Fullers were not "blood grooves" or there to "break the suction" or for some other grisly purpose. They served a very important structural function. That's all. I have spent the last 27 years studying this and I can prove it beyond any doubt...

A. Dale McLean
<A HREF="http://www.nt.net/~admclean/Index.htm" TARGET="_blank">ADaM Sharps Cutlery - <FONT COLOR="#FF0000">Canadian</FONT> Knife Dealer</A>

 
Fullers add surface area.
If you have two blades of the same weight and length, the one with more surface area will have more stiffness.
I know Joe already said the same thing.




------------------
Luke 22:36, John 18:6-11, Freedom

 
In the Bible there was a big fat guy stabbed with a knife and the suction was so great the knife disappeared inside of him.
OK, JohnR7, where is this? I'm not challenging you, just want to know. I like to think of myself as a student of the Bible, at least, but I have no idea where this is.

Thanks. To others, sorry if this is straying too far. JohnR7, you can reply directly to me via the e-mail address in the header of my message, if you'd like.

------------------
It's just a ****ing staple!
Outlaw_Dogboy, Pax River NAS, Republik of Marilundt



[This message has been edited by Outlaw_Dogboy (edited 16 November 1999).]
 
Well DUH! I had read that! Slap me-self up-side de head, should have remembered. Thanks Howard.

------------------
It's just a ****ing staple!
Outlaw_Dogboy, Pax River NAS, Republik of Marilundt

 
Somewhere in the past I've answered this before but it seems hard to find. The suction thing is bogus. I've processed over two thousand deer (no, I didn't shoot them all!) and more beef and pork than I care to count in my school days. NO SUCTION! A knife or bayonet can get lodged in a bone or joint but an anti-suction device won't help! Some urban (or maybe rural) legends take too long to die!

Bruce Woodbury
 
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