'Blue on blue'

D

David Innes

Joined
Sep 9, 2000
Messages
181
Hey all, here's a question for Uncle and other forumites. I promise everyone that there is going to be no historical discussions, and no politics!
Looking back through the hazy mists of time and a good too many beers, to when I was a young soldier, I can recall being introduced to the UK issue bayonet for the standard issue rifle of the time, an adaptation of the Belgian FN. My intake had been in the Army for about 8 weeks by then. The bayonet wasn't anything spectacular, no edges, a little 7" knife... Fitted to the end of a heavy semi-automatic 7.62mm rifle however, with a group of fresh recruits, it was devastating! The first day, one guy put his hand down to rest on the barrel of his rifle, forgetting he had a bayonet on it. Hmmm. He was of sick for a few weeks and didn't complete his training with us. (Big-hole-in-handitis). The next guy managed to sever his ear while doing the 'shoulder arms' movement in 'drill 101'. Rather spectacular, and a good laugh for all concerned (but, you had to be there). The last bayonet-induced injury was another guy who actually managed to bayonet-charge his own armpit doing the same movement, causing himself considerable pain and loss of blood. There were many other incedents, but none as funny as these, just ripped uniforms and white-faced, trembling recruits.
The point being, this was a blunt, little knife you couldn't have cut toilet tissue with, until it was fixed to the rifle.
My question to Uncle and the forum is this: Look, if a group of 30 or so average guys in military training can take 10% casualties, just by being given a little knife to be instructed in, how is it in the Ghoorka/Ghurka Brigades? What sort of casualties can they inflict on themselves? Do they take the khurkuri from the minute they get issued their kits?
Just been puzzling about it is all. If you're all really lucky I will post my Irish salmon fishing (blue on blue - in a big way!) story. Tired. Sleep now.
G'nite all
David

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"Old too soon, smart too late"

Uncle Bill M, 2000

[This message has been edited by David Innes (edited 09-30-2000).]
 
David, from the reading I've done about Gorkha recruits, there are virtually no problems such as the ones you mentioned. The reason is rather simple, Gorkhas grow up handling khukuris on a regular basis. By the time the young men enter military service, handling khukuris is second nature.
 
if a group of 30 or so average guys in military training can take 10% casualties, just by being given a little knife to be instructed in, how is it in the Ghoorka/Ghurka Brigades?
Click to expand...

"The British army has 67 gallahwallahs, all retired soldiers, whose job is to search the countryside for likely troops. They don't go to the plains or the towns because men in such areas generally aren't considered tough enough. Each gallahwallah is allocated a fixed number to recruit, usually no more than 80. These go on to the next stage, known as the hill selection, in which the tests--physical and mental--are more thorough and the elimination more ruthless. Of some 6,000 boys who attend the hill selection, only 789 make it to the final week-long examination at the British Gurkha recruiting center in Pokhara in west Nepal. Of that number, 230 will join the army while 100 others will be chosen for a select unit in the Singapore police." TIMEasia, November 8, 1999.

In short, we're not talking about average guys.
smile.gif
 
Reading the above, I chuckled to think...if a few 'rainbow' (green) troops can do that much damage (to themselves) with what is essentially a letter opener ('Hay,Tommy...whather'ell...did you know this can-opener fits on the end of a rifle?") it's no wonder that a few trained Ghorka troopers can clean house on a company of the ungodly, with their well-honed BAS'!!!
As an aside...I don't 'test' my khuks like some of you do. But the other day, I was clearing out an old mattress from the guest room, and the sirupati '#204' was sitting on the table. I took a casual tip-swipe at the mattress, which was standing against the wall at that point...and made a slash three inches deep in the tough fabric and padding...the blade went through it like air. I was reminded forcefully of the passage in Dracula where Harker cuts at the Count, shearing through his coat, but missing the undead flesh beneath. The khuk is nothing in front of which to stand.
biggrin.gif


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The sword cannot cut itself, the eye cannot see itself.
 
I read an interview with an ex-gurkha soldier (possibly Dr. Gyi) who had served against the Japanese during WWII. He said during the heat of combat he saw a fellow gurkha accidently cut off his own hand. I can't remember the exact circumstances or where I put the article, but it made an impression. I also remember stories of the intense training of European cavalry soldiers in the 19th century, so that they wouldn't injur their own horses with their swords.
 
I just checked out the link in Berkley's post, to the Metropolitan (ie London) Police website.

I recommend it to you as an insight into what America could be like in 10 years' time if Mr Gore and his buddies win the upcoming election. Be scared. Be *very* scared.

One bit might interest Uncle Bill somewhat. It says -


"If you are found guilty of making, selling, hiring, lending or giving a sharp instrument or blade you are liable to imprisonment, a fine of up to £5000, or both."

Direct quote. No bull. Bill, consider yourself under arrest.

Their advice on "how to stay safe" includes the following pearls of wisdom -

"If you see a gang or someone who may be looking for trouble, cross the street to avoid them."

(It's a well known fact that British criminals and psychopaths are incapable of crossing streets. This is probably connected to witches not being able to cross running water. Or something like that.)

And;

"Don't look someone in the eye - it may look like a challenge."

(And now you know why Brits shuffle along with their eyes fixed on the pavement. Statistics for deaths and serious injuries caused by walking into lamp-posts or under moving vehicles are not available at this time...)

And:

"If you are attacked, shout as loudly as you can"

(What to shout is left to your own discretion; after all, it's a free country, isn't it? Something on the lines of "Aaaargh!" would probably fit the bill.)

The bit that made me spray the screen with a fine mist of coffee before collapsing on the floor in hysterical laughter, however, was the very last line -

"Why not learn self-defence?"

Here is a revised version of the How To Stay Safe section, with somewhat more practical advice.

1. If you don't live in Britain, stay well away.

2. If you live in Britain, emigrate.

Hope this helps.
 
Great post there from Tom, an issue that I've drawn attention to in another thread. Fortunately, the view of the Metropolitan Police as regards what does and doesn't constitute 'law' is not taken by the judicial system. You can all sleep easier in your beds tonite if you know that anyone here may buy, sell, make and use knives! There is a dealer in my sleepy little post-industrial town who sells Spyderco gear, Cold Steel and various Euro stuff. All illegally? Course not! Does anyone really think that I would import khurkuris if I really thought I would be fined £5000 every time? (Equals $7395 US or 535.608 Nepalese Rupees) Get real guys!
But kudos to Tom, very good points well made. Can anyone really believe that the police of a world capital advise people not to make eye contact in order not to be percieved as a challenge? It sounds like an invitation to fulfil the role of 'victim', ie, by appearing vunerable. Is it possible for a member of a law-enforcement agency to comment on this?
It is a crappy country. There was a guy earlier this year who shot two scum who broke into his house and threatened to harm him. He only killed one of them (unlucky). Unbelievably, this man, who was merely defending his property and life was convicted of murder. Murder. Not manslaughter. I couldn't believe it got to court, but there you go...
I wholeheartedly endorse Tom's pieces of advice. Don't come. If you live here, leave.
David (who is not in an argumentative mood - today)

[This message has been edited by David Innes (edited 10-02-2000).]

[This message has been edited by David Innes (edited 10-02-2000).]
 
David,

The FN is truely unwieldly piece of equipment with a bayonet attached. I suspect that most accidents with bayonets are made sever due to the weight of the rifle.

When I was discussing M16 vs FAL with a Canadian soldier (a FAL fan), bayonets came up. I asked if bayonets to armpit accidents occurred. He comfirmed that it did happen.

Will
 
I know you have all looked at Berkley's link by now, but did you notice this particular comment, which really jumped out at me? (I'm sure Berkley caught it)--

"Did You Know?

That if you're caught carrying a weapon in a public place it's up to you to show that it wasn't made or adapted to cause injury."

Berkley, isn't that basically 'guilty until proven innocent'?

David, I hope the courts don't share the same view as the Metro Police on that.



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"President Clinton learned there were 100,000 cattle guards in Colorado. Since Clinton was so upset with ranchers' protests over his grazing policies, he told U.S. Secretary of Interior Bruce Babbitt to fire half the cattle guards immediately. Before Babbitt could proceed with the President's wishes, Colorado representative Pat Schroeder intervened with a request that before any were fired, they would be given six months of retraining."
-- October 26, 1994, Newcastle Reporter January 1995, New Mexico Stockman
Magazine
 
Regardless of what the judicial system may or may not do in regard to police stupidity, I still think the police stupidity itself is a major cause for alarm.

These are the idiots who claim to be protecting you?
 
Hi all!
Yeah, this is something I have looked at a little closer, and discussed with my legal guy (well, that sounds like I'm some big-shot! I'm not. He's a legal guy, who is employed by the enormous firm I work for. He happens to be a friend!) He tells me it's up to the Police to 'prove' intent to inflict harm on another, ie, premeditation. Then the knife or whatever becomes an 'offensive weapon'. Apparently it's a common law thing. That police site is hogwash, a anal-retentive's fantasy... Still, do you deliberally take on City Hall? Speaking as one who's home clanks, clicks and clatters with highly lethal objects, I will just keep my head below the parapet...
Still, back to the thread. Anyone have any knowledge of the original subject of thread? That was, er, hmmm. I'll get back to you on that one. What in God's holy trousers was it again?
David
smile.gif



------------------
"Old too soon, smart too late"

Uncle Bill M, 2000
 
David -

What your friend told you is out of date; the law's been changed. It's now up to you to prove that you have an acceptable reason for carrying a knife &c in a public place.

(BTW; for the purposes of this law, 'public place' includes the trunk of your car)

I've been trying to figure out what that bizzare piece of s*** about 'making, selling &c' on the Met website is supposed to relate to - I assumed it was a misunderstanding/deliberate misstatement of a genuine law, as most of the site seems to be. Can't find anything at all that looks like it, apart from the provisions in the latest Act about 'combat knives' (basically, it's a crime to advertise or describe a knife or other blade offered for sale as a 'combat knife' or in any way to suggest that it's designed or suitable for 'combat' use...)

Excuse me, I have to go and throw up now. Thinking about British laws has that effect on me, I find.
 
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